Day 7 Anna and Melissa (Copy finished podcast)
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Speaker: [00:00:00] If you've ever found yourself spiraling down a late night rabbit hole of what am I meant to do and why haven't I found it yet? And let's be honest, who hasn't? Then you're in the right place. I'm Theresa White, career clarity expert and five time certified career coach, and I'm here to help you navigate the question of how to find a career that truly lights you up.
On Career Clarity Unlocked, We're all about those light bulb moments. I'm talking to people who are still trying to figure out what they're meant to do, coaching them live to reach that magical, yes, this is it moment. And we'll also hear from those who've already found their dream careers and figure out exactly how they did it.
Whether you're looking for inspiration or actionable advice on finding a career you love, I've got you covered. Time to unlock some career clarity. Let's dive in.
Transcribed
Theresa: Welcome back to the 12 Days of Career Goals. Today, we're diving into a game [00:01:00] changing topic. How to negotiate your salary with confidence. Whether you're gearing up for a big negotiation or simply want to better advocate for your worth, this session is packed with actionable insights. Let's We'll tackle common myths, share preparation frameworks, and explore techniques to turn tough questions into powerful moments of value creation.
Get ready to transform fear into confidence and leave inspired to secure the compensation you truly deserve. Let's unlock your negotiation power because knowing your worth and asking for it can change the trajectory of your career. Joining me today are two absolutely incredible experts, Anna Morgan and Melissa Hodgins.
Anna Morgan is a recognized talent acquisition partner and the visionary behind career BFF. Where she merges her recruiting expertise with genuine care for people leaders on the individual career journeys. Anna has become a noted resource in the professional world, helping over 11, 000 job seekers [00:02:00] navigate the complexities of managing career growth while serving clients across a multitude of industries such as retail, healthcare, technology and sports and entertainment.
Melissa Hortons is an executive career coach with a business and recruiting background. Specializing in helping leaders define and communicate their unique value. With Fortune 100 experience and insider hiring expertise, Melissa equips professionals to confidently navigate transitions, secure leadership roles, and align their strengths with organizational impact.
Known for her results driven approach, Melissa helps clients turn their expertise into clear, compelling value that drives career growth and business success. Welcome, Anna. Welcome, Melissa , to the 12 Days of Career Growth! So great to have both of you here, and I love the Christmas spirit here in the background.
This is what we need.
Anna: Yes.
Theresa: Thanks for
Anna: having us.
Theresa: Of course. I'm so excited that both of you are [00:03:00] here. And Anna, I want to kick it off with you and start with some very common myths. What's one of the most surprising myths about salary negotiations that you've encountered in your coaching? And how do these myths holding professionals back from asking for what they are worth?
Anna: Absolutely. Great question. And as a recruiter as well, and coach, you know, there were five main myths that I thought of, which I think the, the biggest one is If you negotiate, you'll get your offer rescinded and, you know, job seekers think that that's part of the problem, but really to solve that, you have to talk about money early and often.
Uh, and if your recruiter is not doing that, then you have an opportunity to, you know, adjust how you're going to manage that opportunity. I think the second one is asking for more is greedy. Which is absolutely not the case. [00:04:00] We have earned the right as we progress through the interview process. Once we learn more about the role, the responsibility is, um, you know, the role that we're considering, there's a price tag attached to that, and there's nothing wrong with saying after I've reviewed this and interviewed with this many people, I know I told you this range, but this is now what I'm looking for.
Um, the third myth is your work should speak for itself. And no one is going to advocate for you, um, or assume that you are worth X unless you really pack that punch, make the business case and ask for it. Um, the fourth I would say is the myth is you can only negotiate base salary, which is not the case as well.
I think we're going to talk about that in a little bit. And the last one is if you're early in your career, you're going to Don't bother trying to negotiate, which is so not the truth either, because it's a great skill to start developing, you know, as you're moving [00:05:00] through, uh, especially in those early career years.
Theresa: I love this, Anna. Those are five fantastic myths. And Thinking to starting early in your career, it does affect the whole trajectory of your career, right? Because generally you move up from that first place that you started at. So if you miss the first couple of negotiation opportunities, you're probably at a lower salary range than someone who did start negotiating from early on.
Anna: And we probably all have coached people that we realize, you know, wow, you're massively underpaid for what you're doing. And to your point, it goes right back to, you know, if you know, by yourself starting out early in your career, you're going to constantly be trying to catch up. And then, Trying to advocate for a big jump in your salary, like when you're more mid to senior level, um, you know, comes with a whole nother, [00:06:00] uh, execution plan, you know, have to have the confidence and the storytelling to be able to achieve that.
Melissa: And one thing I'd like, I love to add, I mean, Anna, you've captured a lot of the big myths and I mean, one of the big ones that we kind of touched upon is that the first offer is the only offer. Right? Everyone, regardless of when you start in your career and as you progress, the first offer isn't the only offer.
And we'll talk more about this throughout throughout the program. , and the other thing is the myth that you have to disclose your current salary, right? You might feel obligated, but sharing this information can actually Anchor you at a lower range than your worth. So instead focus on the market value that you, that's out there and available, and also the value that you bring.
And, you know, and the last thing I know, Anna, you already touched on this too, which is, Negotiation is just about salary. There are so [00:07:00] many other components that make up total calm. And those are the other elements that you can include as part of the overall negotiation strategy, right? Negotiation is much more than just salary is more than numbers.
It really is about establishing your worth in regards to the opportunity.
Theresa: That's such a great add on. Thank you, Melissa. And one thing that really stood out to me is. Going back to what Anna said is that price tag you're putting on it. And then you think about hiring a service provider. If you're suddenly, if you're asking someone, I'm going to use a very simple example, like I'm asking someone to remodel my bathroom in the beginning.
I'm like, I need a new sink. And then. As we go through the project, I'm like, Oh, by the way, I need a new sink, a new toilet and a new bathtub. Guess what? That price tag is going up. And so it is when you are negotiating, when you're going through an interview process, you will learn that the job probably is more expensive than it was [00:08:00] originally advertised.
And so they're asking more of you. Guess what? That's going to cost them more. Um, but that being said, Melissa, You touched on that fear of asking for more might seem greedy or even jeopardize the offer. Do you have any advice for how we can reframe this fear into a mindset of collaboration or even value creation?
Melissa: Oh, absolutely. I think we've all been in the position of having that, you know, that feeling of that knot in your stomach as we're negotiating. , and we know why, right? There's a real fear involved and it's uncomfortable. But here's the the key. Negotiation isn't about grade. It really is about clarity, value and collaboration.
So a couple of things to consider, , it's know that what you're feeling is real, right? It's natural to be afraid. It's natural to be uncomfortable. I mean, you've been through a lot just in the hiring process. You've been through the interviews and now you're nearing the end and it's perfectly natural to start [00:09:00] wondering about, , The what if like what if something goes wrong?
You know what? At this offer stage, it's seldom a one and done deal. Most employers expect some type of discussion. You will want to be able to create a package that works for them and works for you. And this is where you want to shift mindset, right? This is where you want to shift from the misconception that negotiation is supposed to be adversarial.
It's not it's not meant to be a tug of war. It really is a conversation around alignment. And Right? So both you and the employer, they want the same thing. Success, right? They want you to succeed. They want themselves to succeed. , you want to feel valued and supported. They want you to be able to be the one that delivers results.
Right? And also, rather than focusing on your emotions, focus on the value that you deliver. Right. Hiring is a business decision, right? They have problems to solve. You yourself become the solution to those problems. So when you [00:10:00] focus on the tangible impact that you deliver, it helps you shift away from the emotions more on the value.
And then the last thing I would suggest is. focusing on the long term, right? You're not just negotiating the offer. You're also setting the tone for a strong working relationship, both now and moving forward. And this is a way of not only building alignment, but also building a trusting relationship that you can build as you further your develop your working career at that employer.
Theresa: That is really, really great advice, Melissa. Thanks for sharing that. It's, it's so hard for , most of us, actually, and I'm thinking back to my early career, I wouldn't have dared to negotiate. I didn't even know that was a thing that I'm thinking back 15 years ago. But knowing that the expected, And that you're actually through that negotiation, communicating your value is so [00:11:00] powerful.
Anna: . And I was gonna just say, like, as a recruiter, I'm my mind keeps swirling here, and I know Melissa was a recruiter as well. When we think about this whole process, and I want to say to all the job seekers listening and those that will catch the replay is, please trust that recruiters don't go into these conversations from a, , adversarial, uh, place or a place of conflict.
Um, a good recruiter is going to be asking about the money and anything changing and what's important to you. Um, you know, has anything changed? And through those conversations, it gives you the job seeker a chance. You know, to ask more probing questions as well. So I also just want to remind people that, you know, the recruiters want to make it work.
So be brave and bold and advocate for yourself from the beginning to the end, because I can say what's tough is when I get to the end and I've been vigilant about over communicating and asking, and then somebody tries to, [00:12:00] you know, hit me with a curve out of left field and nowhere within reason And then I'm like, okay, now it's hard to salvage this deal.
Um, and so I also just encourage transparency between job seeker and, , the person that's helping them through the process.
Theresa: That is such a good point, Anna. And you're so right. Recruiters are not Mean people who are trying to get you in at the cheapest rate possible. I mean, of course, companies have budgets, right?
But generally, and I have a background in recruiting as well. You're somewhat the middle person between you want to make the hiring manager happy by finding the best person to solve their problem. And you also care about the candidates, at least the vast majority of recruiters care. And when you have someone, you see their value.
You also want them to be happy when they accept you. So exactly
Anna: as a recruiter. Like if they don't, if I do my job, like knock it out of the park, , just [00:13:00] high touch the whole process. Typically they're not going to need to negotiate because I have, you know, given them everything they, they needed and set that expectation through the whole process.
But, um, you know, every single person's experience with different recruiters varies, um, but I think it's important. To paint that picture for the job search community.
Theresa: I love that. It's so important to realize that recruiters are humans too. And a lot of them want the best. Yes. Going back to the candidate side, Anna, for someone walking into salary negotiation, let's say next week.
What is the go to framework for them to prepare for that? Are there any specific steps you recommend that they can take to walk in confident and well prepared?
Anna: Okay, I'm not sure. , Melissa, I know that you had a framework that you use. Was it specifically for salary negotiation prep or, , something different?[00:14:00]
I saw your, your framework and I was like, that's brilliant., I can talk through, , doing the research, determining your numbers, , , practicing your pitch, being confident, , collaborative with your recruiter, but, , I know you had a, a system. So I wanted to also, pass the, the mic back over to you as well.
Oh yeah, no, absolutely. And thanks.
Melissa: Yeah. So, I mean, I do have a, a framework, I call it the value framework and. Really, it's walking through a lot of the points that you've outlined just in your outline there, Anna. It's one, knowing your value, understanding what it is that you're bringing to the table, right?
It's also doing the research, not only from your past experience or from industry benchmarks, understanding what's available in the market and how do you align to that. Part of it, too, is understanding who you're working with, how you're working with, And knowing the timing, right? If it's a new job offer, then of course you're in the offer stage.
You know you've [00:15:00] been in that final category of being selected. If it's something new, so for example, I also speak about If you're looking for, say, a performance evaluation, and you're looking to negotiate a better raise again, it's all about the value you bring. It's not about what you do. It's translating what you do into how it impacts the organization, how it drives value for them, right?
Understanding that understanding that in positioning it. And so that's how I've outlined it. And it's a lot of different steps as you move through it. But it's a lot of the data that you outline, right, at the end of the day. It's not about what you do. It's the value that you bring to the organization that really sets you apart.
Anna: And that's a great segue into reminding job seekers when they are in this interview process to really like turn up the listening. Right. Because we think in an interview, we have to pitch and talk and sell and [00:16:00] just be like, , doing the dog and pony show. But actually the real magic to nail a salary negotiation, preparation is to listen to where the There's pain points, right?
This is the saleswoman in me, right? And what is going to happen when you, the job seeker come in and you close that new client for 1. 2 million, right? We'll negotiating 20, 000 in your salary or an extra week vacation. If you have demonstrated your leadership philosophy to closing new business as a regional salesperson, , or if you worked in quality assurance, this is, you know, my process for doing this and I, , save this organization.
500, 000 because we corrected this particular product, right? And so it's listening for those things. And again, goes back to research, making sure you understand the product, the service, uh, [00:17:00] the, , experience from beginning to end. Then You can sprinkle in your features and benefits, your processes of how, as Melissa said, you solve those unique business problems.
And when the people on the other side of the screen are nodding their head and smiling and they're like, I'll write the check now she can do it. He can do it. Let's go. So that's the other thing. And I always tell. Job seekers that have never been in sales to get a basic sales one on one book and apply that some to your job search, as well as to the negotiation strategies in sales.
It's typically , the person who doesn't speak that oftentimes wins the conversations. So, um, you know, there's a lot of moving parts in the listening, more listening than talking. And then when you do talk, you're going to have those mic drop moments to really pack a punch where then salary, the negotiation piece won't feel so hard.[00:18:00]
Theresa: Oh, that is brilliant. Yes. I'm totally with you here on listening because , when we assume what their problems are, we're basing everything off assumption. But when we're listening and know, okay, this is the problems they are trying to solve. And I know I can do this and then I can demonstrate this or share how I've done that in the past.
They're like, yeah, I want you on my team. How much? You want 10, 000 more? Yeah, not a problem. Here you go, right? Yeah,
Melissa: , I think some other things to, um, to, to build upon that too, is, you know, thinking beyond just salary, right? And I know we're going to talk about this. There are so many other components that comprise your total comp.
So as you're working through the offer stage, it's important to know what's important to you, right? For, I mean, are you looking for flexibility? Are you looking for leadership opportunities or growth? , And this kind of leads into also knowing your audience, [00:19:00] right? If you look at who the employer is. They fall into different industries or domains.
So I say, know your audience by thinking, well, if you're looking at negotiating an offer, say, if you're at a startup or an enterprise or private sector or public sector, each one of these categories, , negotiates compensation somewhat differently. So, you know, startups tend to focus on, , equity and growth potential and flexibility more so over base salary.
Enterprises. Well, there's a whole bunch of information there in terms of small, medium and large, but they tend to offer more structured packages with elements like bonuses, , professional development and, detailed health care benefits and other benefits and then public sector, we know the boundaries there, right?
There may be some restrictions in terms of fixed pay scales, but they also provide opportunities for, perhaps additional vacation. Of course, stability. And your work, work life model, [00:20:00] right? So it's one thing to know exactly the type of environment you're going into and understanding what those boundaries may or may not be.
And the last thing I would say, and I'm sure you know this because we're both, , you know, have a, have a sales background is to ask questions. , when you present the offer or you're going through things, don't assume that the offer is fixed. Every element is fixed. Ask questions, right? Is there flexibility on the salary?
Can I get more PTO? I, I'm used to getting four weeks. Can I get five? Ask the questions. Don't just, just assume that every element is fixed. Absolutely.
Theresa: Yeah. And that's such an important point. And it feels like a bold ask, but more often than not, the experience I have with my clients is that they are so surprised that it seems like such a bold ask.
And the answer is yes. Or, can we meet in the middle? It's more often a yes or can we meet in [00:21:00] the middle than a flat out no.
Melissa: Mm hmm. If you don't ask, if you don't ask, you'll never There's always gonna be a no.
Theresa: Yeah, when you don't ask, it's gonna be a no. And we just touched on the topic of expanding the full package outside of base salary.
So let's stay with that for a moment. Anna, you already mentioned that compensation is more than just the base salary.
Anna: Right.
Theresa: Any tips or advice that you have for clients to advocate for the full package that reflects their worth?
Anna: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I recommend that my clients kind of shift this to this mindset of total rewards.
So thinking beyond the base salary and view their compensation as you know, I'm totally rewarded for all the things I do and who I am. So Like we mentioned, it starts with a clear inventory of what matters most to them, whether that's a performance bonus, upward mobility, flexible work [00:22:00] arrangements, professional development allowances, educational allowances.
So once they know their priorities, they can confidently move Request them as they go through the negotiation. The other thing is, , understanding, as it was said, your audience, the market norms, um, you know, I, this is where informational interviews are powerful. When you talk to different people to understand, does this company prioritize equity, wellness stipends, remote work options, , parental leave, , those other things that are becoming way more important to job seekers in this market than I think we were ever .
Discussing prior to covid. , and then you have to frame it around mutual benefit, right? I suggest that they highlight how each of those benefits meets their needs, but also supports the ability to perform at their best. So, for example, You have flexible working hours that can be positioned as a means to increase productivity and reduce burnout, which is [00:23:00] something I'm very passionate about.
Um, and, , show how those elements and, , total package benefit both parties. And then really just be in that energy of creative solutions. , Really encouraging collaboration, right? Collaboration over competition. Um, you know, if a , assigning bonus isn't feasible. Consider alternative forms of compensation could be retention bonus.
, post 90 day, salary review. So you can show them like what you've done. , and there's just a lot of ways that you can be creative again. If you've never done it, it's hard to think, you know, what, what could I ask and how could I position this? , but the thing to remember is that companies are having to be more flexible and I would say agile in some of these spaces, especially in areas where, demand is high and supply is low from a talent perspective.
Theresa: That's a really great advice and thank you for sharing [00:24:00] that. You touched on informational interviews, Anna, and I want to get your take on this. Money is such a taboo subject in our society, right? We're, we're not talking about money. Would you ever bring up the subject of money in an informational interview?
Anna: Well, I mean, I can give an example of my own live experience. , I was contacted about an opportunity with an RPO and, , through some mutual connections, I went ahead and set up some informational interviews and it was conversational. And I would say, Melissa, I'm so glad you took the time, you know, to tell me about your experience working with a company.
Um, you know, I'm interviewing for the senior recruiter role and my past experience and salary has been this. Do you feel that's competitive for what you're seeing within your organization? And then you're not asking them like, Teresa, what do you make at career bloom? Right. That, that could be like a little offsetting.
Um, but that was a way I, you know, [00:25:00] Was more comfortable going into some of the other interviews, knowing that I would get my worth. And then I had made like a career BFF, right? That I had spent time with. They had experienced me. I experienced them. And when I did get the offer, I You know, negotiated right there on the phone and was able to get the increased amount.
Um, and then when I got hired because of those informational interviews, I was like fast tracked into projects. And so that is like the other hidden benefit of doing the informational interviews.
Theresa: I love that. This is so great. And it's a way to talk about money without having to ask that very direct and quite uncomfortable question that I wouldn't necessarily recommend this, but it shows you've done your research.
You know what the market value is. for the role you're targeting, and you can get an idea. Are they at that rate or way above, way beyond? And
Anna: you could, you could say, , Teresa, [00:26:00] I've read some of the reviews, how do you feel your team members feel that they're compensated? Um, and get the general vibe there.
And, you know, if people are not happy, they're going to spill the tea and then you're going to understand maybe there's a, a culture challenge there. And if that's an environment that you. Want to continue exploring. So lots of tells available in those conversations. Yeah.
Theresa: It's all about conversations with people who work there and who can give you the inside scoop.
Now, Melissa, I'm going to go back to the actual negotiations. So let's say we're in a salary notation and sometimes hiring managers can ask quite tough or unexpected questions. For example, well, why do you think you deserve the salary? How would you recommend professionals respond in a way that feels confident and grounded rather than getting defensive?
Melissa: Wow. You know what? That does happen, right? And when that happens, it can make you feel so [00:27:00] uncomfortable because it's such a direct question. It's kind of like asking your colleague, what are you making? Right? It's a direct question. We're very uncomfortable, but here's the thing. I don't believe when they're asking that question, that they're doubting you.
It's about understanding where they're coming from. What are their priorities? And I would use this moment to spark a conversation. So what we'd want to do is recognize what's the intent behind the question. Right? And typically, what I found is that hiring managers ask this question for a couple of reasons, but one, it could be the budget.
Right. It could be actually a budget fit. And so they're questioning whether or not they have the money with that they've currently allocated for you as what you're asking for. And you're looking to have that conversation. It could be an alignment check, right? There could be assessing whether or not your skills and experience actually matches what they're looking for.
Maybe you're asking for something else. Maybe you're out of sync. That [00:28:00] needs to be clarified. And then Sometimes it's a confidence test, right? They want to see how well you're willing to stand up and advocate for yourself. They want to know how you're able to articulate, say, your value. And this is important, especially for certain roles where they need somebody who has that ability to one communicate, but also work, say, with difficult stakeholders and be able to navigate the process.
So the first thing I would want to do is understand what is their intent. And I would ask the question, happy to address it. Can we dig a little deeper? Are you asking me to clarify my experience and how it fits? Is there a concern about budget? Once you know the direction that they're going, it gives you a better angle as to what you're going to answer now, and then you can actually address it.
And it's not about diminishing your value. It's about again, positioning what you bring and why. Right. What the market value is, why you, you know, why you [00:29:00] align to their organizational needs and what you're going to be able to bring to them, what you're going to be able to deliver to them. And so I think the other thing too, is even though that initial reaction or that initial question is almost like a gut punch, don't, it's not personal.
Right. It's really not personal. Stay calm, focus on the value, understand the intent, address the intent, and create a conversation. Create a conversation so that the two of you can figure out what's the situation, address it, and move forward.
Theresa: Great advice. And it's true. It's not personal. It's a business decision.
In the moment, you can remove yourself just a little bit from the emotional, emotions that are involved in all of this. But to realize, like, this is a business decision, and I need to understand why they're asking. And then, Address what they're asking for is so powerful. [00:30:00] It's a
Anna: lazy, it's a lazy interview question.
I'm, you know, this is just my hot take on it. And, you know, as a recruiter that spends quite a bit of time coaching managers, I'm not asking lazy questions like that, but it's because either they're not prepared for the interview. , there might be a compensation inequity issues on the team. And so. Teresa, if you're an absolute rock star, and I'm like, she's the person that can solve the the problems for my team.
I want to make sure I have all the information so that I can make the business case and defend myself to any other stakeholders and or my team. Why I brought this person on as a senior versus a specialist, stuff like that. Um, you know, we can ask better questions in my opinion. And we put job seekers through so many hoops.
Like, could We as recruiters and hiring [00:31:00] managers take the time to ask thoughtful questions. And again, if there's good communication between your recruiter and the hiring manager or team that they're working with, I don't think necessarily that you should be asked about comp from the direct hiring manager, because that's my job, um, to make sure that everyone's on the same page there.
So.
Theresa: , that's a really good add on. And what I also have to add to that from my experience is some companies are very lucky and have, have Anna and Melissa on their team who actually train the hiring managers, but I've seen it. And so many times for hiring managers have no clue how to interview and they have no clue how to do a salary negotiation.
And those are also the ones
Anna: that are asking, are you married? Do you have kids? Do you have a car? Yes. Heard all of
Theresa: those, but right. It's, it's not even really their fault. If no one teaches them, if they are just being put into a [00:32:00] hiring role and no one gives them the tools of, okay, how do I have those conversations?
And then you have that hiring manager on the other end of that negotiation, who really doesn't know what they're doing. And those questions can come. So it might help the candidates as well, that this isn't necessarily, The hiring manager trying to be really harsh, but maybe they just don't actually know how to do it.
Anna: Yeah.
Theresa: And I'm curious if there's any moments that come to mind for, for your work with clients, where a client of you faced a salary negotiation and how they approached this and what the outcome was.
Anna: Yeah, this is part of the coaching and being a recruiter that I get super fired up about because it's all about, managing the process, right, and managing the process.
To me, whether it's high stakes or just any conversation, really, the Foundation is early [00:33:00] transparency and relationship building. Early transparency and relationship building. If you really focus on those two things, if you don't remember anything else that we've shared it today, try to remember that because people, if you have that transparency, they're more likely to be open to building the relationship.
They're going to trust you. They're going to get to know you right. And Then they're, I'm going to want to champion you as the recruiter because you have been so diligent in the process. And so I had a client where we worked very vigilantly on this and it was almost like pushback. And he was like, I feel like I'm just too much.
And I'm like, just trust me because the. The kind of secret sauce was the incremental check ins and, managing those conversations about revisiting the topic, clarifying any questions, , sprinkling in some of the total comp questions. Once they had started [00:34:00] interviewing, not in that very first screen, but throughout the process so that when we got the offer, we weren't trying to review an entire benefit package and understand R.
S. U. S. or a complicated bonus . process. So we were educating ourself about all those aspects throughout the process through those check ins. And then we were able to use data from those conversations and results that they have done. Created previously to really showcase how they were in line with the benchmarks of, , what the company was needing, et cetera.
And then, , the success finally came from really, you know, being professional, managing up to the conversation. Um, and everyone walked away feeling positive, respected, , and excited about, you know, this new opportunity, that. Was happening because the [00:35:00] candidate had accepted the opportunity.
So, you know, I don't see, there's a huge difference between like a high stakes negotiation and anyone that's getting a job. It just really comes down to, , that transparency and really trying to build that relationship. And I know that's hard for a lot of people because they feel like this is a transaction, but trust me, if you focus.
From a relationship standpoint, if for some reason the deal did fall apart, you might. Be able to leverage that relationship in a different way in your career at some point.
Theresa: 100 percent relationship and transparency, two huge takeaways for today. And now that we heard a success story of how such a succession as a Successful negotiation can play out, Melissa.
I want to ask you if there's any specific moments during the negotiation process where you believe professionals often leave money on the table and are there any techniques you [00:36:00] can share that they can use to turn those moments into wins?
Melissa: Oh, okay. Absolutely. I mean, I think both Anna and I have been through a variety of different, , offer stages across the board, but, You know what?
I can think of a couple of moments when this happens. And to be fair, you don't know what you don't know. Um, the first one is, , when you first get the initial offer, right again, the initial offer is seldom the final word. It's typically the starting point. No, we're not starting over. We're building on the conversations that you've already had throughout the process.
Some professionals, they accept the offer too quickly, especially where they assume that it's fixed and when it meets their expectations. Right. So you've got everything you wanted. It's, you know, I would suggest, of course, you're excited, ask for some time to review the opportunity and to review the offer and just go through the package and look for potential areas that you can explore to [00:37:00] further build out your compensation package.
The other time when this comes up is, as you mentioned, Teresa, when you're going through the interview process, and there's additional responsibilities that get added. So, all of a sudden the role gets expanded during the conversation as you're speaking with some of the different leaders. This is an opportunity to revisit the compensation based upon these additional responsibilities.
And I would address them then and now. I wouldn't wait until the offer, the final offer was released. This should be discussed as these responsibilities are being discussed with you. And then to sometimes. When we get the offer, we tend to focus only on the salary, and as both Anna and I have discussed, There's much more than just the salary.
Of course, it's important, but there are other elements to consider. So look at the whole package, not just a single component. And then even after you start, you should be [00:38:00] looking at post hire milestones. So I say this because let's say you've been hired for a major transformational project or a major milestone.
Or there's some type of bonusing based upon performance. You should be looking or perhaps discussing how you can add these milestones into your offer. So you're maximizing what you're providing back to the organization.
Theresa: Fantastic advice, Melissa. Thank you. One thing that really stood out to me, and that was actually mentioned earlier, but I love negotiating.
So if you're asking for a salary and they can't meet you there, and Why don't you ask for, okay, can you revisit this in 90 days? So as I said, Melissa, like also negotiating what's down the road. Can I first prove that I'm going to deliver on this project? I'm going to show you what I'm capable of in 90 days.
And then let's have that conversation again. And tying that into the package is huge. [00:39:00] So now. We are almost in 2025. I cannot believe that we're like, what, 23 days away from the new year. Anna, I want to ask you first, what's one piece of advice or a mantra or what would you recommend most for professionals and job seekers stepping into 2025 and wanting to negotiate successfully, especially if this is the first time they're advocating for their salary or their work.
Anna: Perfect. I think the mantra that I would suggest or mantra is you are not asking a favor. You are clarifying your value. You're not asking a favor. You're not being too much. You are literally presenting what where you've been, what you've done and where you're looking to go and the impact that you can make.
And so it's just simply about clearly articulating what you bring to the table, approach it as a conversation, focus on the [00:40:00] relationship and show How there's mutual benefit and mutual value.
Theresa: That is a beautiful takeaway. Melissa, what one piece of advice would you add to that as a mantra or a takeaway for professionals for a salary negotiation they are preparing for in 2025?
Melissa: Oh, you know, absolutely. I think Anna and I are are in sync here. And, you know, I would just frame it as know your value, own your value and communicate your value. Right? So when you know what you bring to the table, when you know the problems that you solve, own it, right? Your confidence comes from the preparation and the research that you've done and communicated.
Negotiation is alignment, not demand. So when you frame it in terms of mutual success, It really makes a difference in terms of what you can get at the end of the day. So know it, own it, communicate it.
Anna: I [00:41:00] love that. Just because There is this, you know, people think that there's just so many job seekers everywhere.
And, you know, you should be able to get a job, um, that should not like, you know, detract to you from negotiating your salary and asking for your value. Um, and so, you know, really be conscientious of the energy that you're in. You know, I think so many job seekers, especially those that have been in extended search for a long time, they're just like, I'm so relieved to get an offer.
I don't care if it's way below. I'm just going to take it right. Um, and I think you can find balance with that. Like, you can be like, okay, I can start here. But. These are some, uh, boundaries that I want, like we mentioned, or, uh, markers that we can work towards so that you at least have a path to get back to where you want to be essentially.
Theresa: [00:42:00] That's a great add on. And I also want to emphasize this when you made it to the offer stage, you've been through rounds of interviews that costs the company money and time. At that point, when they make you an offer, they don't want to lose you. They really don't. They've been through too much to start over or go back to another candidate.
So also knowing that at this point, they really want you on their team. They see your value. They want you to work for them. And that might give you the confidence of, okay, I can ask for my worth. Now, we are having so many amazing questions here. So let's move on to Q& A and anyone listening, feel free to drop in more questions into the chat.
And I want to start with one that I hear a lot and can't wait to hear your take on it. And that goes back to transparency that came up a couple of times. I heard that the candidate should never say an expected salary first. Is this true? If so, how would you recommend a [00:43:00] candidate navigate the query? What is the expected salary for this role?
Anna: Who wants to go first? Melissa?
Melissa: Sure. Um, there's that myth that you shouldn't declare your salary. There's a lot of information available, but you have a range, right? When you're applying for a role, you have a range in mind that is going to work for you. So it can become that chicken and egg scenario. You tell me yours.
No, I'll wait until I get, I want to show my hand. I think the important thing here is to be up front. I like to coach my clients to be up front, offer a range, offer a range of what you're looking for. And that way you can validate whether or not that range applies. There is a lot of information available, um, obviously on the internet, but even in some job descriptions, they'll give you a range.
Now, granted that range can be something ridiculous, but you have to know what you're looking for. And throw it out there. It's not a [00:44:00] fixed number. It's not like I have to get this number. I'm looking for a range that goes from X to Y, but more importantly, I'm looking at the overall opportunity and then I'm open to discussions as to how what I can provide enables the organization to succeed.
The whole key here when you're at that stage is to get yourself into the process. And position yourself for success. What do you say, Anna?
Anna: I absolutely agree. I always encourage people to talk about money early and often. And as a recruiter of 20 years, I have never worked jobs where a hiring manager was like, just go find me an accounts payable person and we'll figure out the money.
Right. So. I often say, thank you so much for asking about my salary because I do like to get paid when I go to work, you know, and, and play with humor too. And, but then say, you're running a business, you probably have a budgeted range for this role [00:45:00] before I answer that question, since this is the first question.
The start of our conversation, the start of this relationship. Can you tell me the range that is budgeted for the role? Honestly, if your recruiter can't give you a range, I think that's a red flag and I probably wouldn't continue the conversation further. And so they say, Oh, the range is, you know, 65 to 90 K plus bonus.
Great. As of today, the little I know from the job description and the 15 minute chat we've had, I would be in the, you know, Top 10 percent of the range that you provided. But as we go through this process, I will communicate any adjustments or, um, you know, things that might affect total comp as we go through the process.
And again, if you can say it confidently and simply their recruiters going to have no problem. And if they press you or say, well, what were you making in your last position? You have to know the laws in your state. A lot of places you don't have to answer that. [00:46:00] And you can also politely answer. I understand that salary is important to you.
Um, at this time, , since we're not at the offer stage, I typically don't disclose what I was making in my previous, , role. Um, I do that when we're considering an offer.
Theresa: Great advice. And I love the reminder that you don't have to in most places, , share what you're currently making. And also the salary should be based on what the value and the work that you're going to be doing.
Not what you've done last.
Anna: Exactly. If you think about it like we don't want to hire people for the exact same role that they did previously. Um, so that's part of the interview process and kind of marketing and selling yourself is to showcase because I've done this, this uniquely qualifies me to be able to do X to solve these problems for your company.
And again, if you think about the problem that you're solving for the [00:47:00] company, if you can tie that to data and finances, right? Like If I do social media for a business page on LinkedIn, and because of that, this company generates a lead and gets a client for 1. 2 million. Like what, how could I, , put a number on that?
I can only tell the story of my processes previously, how I've created these results and how I envision doing it for your organization. Absolutely.
Theresa: Next question that we got is how can I negotiate my value when changing careers? I've been asked both how much I'm earning or how much I'm expecting to earn in both interviews and online applications.
I have the feeling this might actually disqualify me if I answer
Melissa: Okay. Well, Hmm. Well, there's a lot to unpack here. Um, Yeah, I mean, I did a lot. Okay. So When [00:48:00] you're changing careers, right? It's all about leverage. It's taking your existing experience and expertise and applying it towards the new opportunity.
So again, it's all about the value that you're bringing, right? And how you position it. So when we talk about the value that you bring, don't think about what you do. It's that translation from what you do into how it drives or enables business success. And there's going to be a lot, no doubt that you can take with you.
Into this new role. And then when it comes to discussing it, yes, on applications, they ask for it. And it goes back to what we just talked about in terms of if you're in a conversation, as Anna was, was previously talking, talk about the range that you're looking for, ask them for the range, compare and contrast it towards.
Is this going to meet what I'm looking for? And if so, then you can continue down the conversation. The whole key here, isn't to put a stake in the ground and say, I must get this. If you know [00:49:00] what your limits are, your boundaries are, then you can position yourself for success. Um, and it also takes that research.
Depending upon the change you're making too, there may be some compensation changes you have to make. So you have to factor that into the whole picture. So a lot of different moving parts here, but that's how I would, from a high level, um, suggest you tackle it. Anna.
Anna: I think we're going to see more organizations being open to hiring, , people that are pivoting.
Right. Um, because white collar jobs are down a trade positions are up. , and there's more supply right now for a lot of, like, corporate roles. So I think focusing on skill competencies, right? So. Making sure you know what is needed to be successful in that job and drawing the bridge from these are the skills that I've executed in one role.
These are the skills that you need. Here's how I bring them together. [00:50:00] The second thing is when pivoting industries or careers is your process again, like your, your leadership philosophy, your, , Way of hiring rainmakers, your, um, , process for having a highly engaged team. So those like philosophies or processes or frameworks, they're industry agnostic.
If you can explain them with confidence, I did this in a pharmaceutical sales role. I can do this in a hospitality food sales position, right? Because this is my process and this is how it works. Thanks. And this is the results that it has created. So, you know, I encourage people to think about that and why it's so helpful to have people that focus on clarity, like you, Teresa, because that really can bloom from those conversations and give them that spark and confidence to say, I can totally transition into that role.
If it's someone more senior, that's looking to take a step [00:51:00] back, what you're looking to overcome is, is it. The organization or hiring manager, assuming you're just going to be a flight risk as far as soon as the economy comes back, or there is a senior VP of HR role available. So you have to paint the picture of why this type of role is perfect for you at this season in your life.
And this comes back to transparency because we're not in the business of square peg round hole. If I hire you, I want you to work out and be able to accomplish your goals. So I understand that there's risk that comes with transparency, but that's better to repel some people versus take something. And then you get in six months later and you're like, what did I do?
Theresa: And one word that you said really stood out is building that bridge. And it's something I'm so big on since I work mainly with career changers is building that bridge of [00:52:00] what you're Then in the past to what you want to do in the future, that burden is on you.
Anna: Don't
Theresa: wait. Don't it's not on the recruiter or the hiring manager to figure out how your past experience translates into what you want to do next.
If you have a great recruiter, maybe they'll see it, but it's your job to do this. So you need to communicate that very clearly about how what you've done in the past positions you very well for this role, even if it was done in different contexts . Absolutely. Two more fantastic questions here. First one, it seems that more salaries are listed on job descriptions.
Would agree. If the salaries are listed, does this mean there isn't room for negotiation? Should an offer be given? And I think specifically negotiating past the highest range that was listed on the job description, I would imagine.
Melissa: Oh, absolutely. Right. So the range is gives you a ballpark of what they're looking for. And [00:53:00] it's not necessarily the lowest. It's not necessarily the highest. So it really gives you a ballpark as you're interviewing as you're moving through the process as you're leading with your value, and you're learning more about the role and discussing how you can deliver against those different areas of impact that are necessary.
You start building your portfolio of value that you can then leverage. And as you're uncovering new areas in the conversation, you're again, you're adding that into the portfolio of this is what I can do for you. This is what I've done in the past. This is going to have such an impact to the bottom line of your business.
That's what you take into the negotiations with you. So when you see a range, it's not necessarily the all end all, There is room to maneuver. And again, it's not necessarily just the salary. So yes, salary is important, but also look at the other elements. So, [00:54:00] and also knowing what your audience is, right? So if it's an enterprise or public sector or startup, you want to be able to factor that into what you could potentially negotiate.
And then you go into those types of elements and evaluate what works for you, what's important to you, and then ask for that. It could be something as simple as, you know, can I work from home 2 3 days a week, right? It could be, you know what, I'm used to having X number of weeks or days of PTO, can I have a few more?
It could be something as important as healthcare benefits, right? Maybe startups don't necessarily have that. Um, but then could they allocate more money into the salary so you can go through a private methodology of getting it? Lots of different nuances here to factor in.
Theresa: Absolutely. Anna, any thoughts you want to add on negotiating outside of the range?
Well,
Anna: I mean, praise, I was just happy that, you know, there are salary [00:55:00] ranges with job descriptions. I'll tell y'all a quick secret is that I used to post the salary range on a job description and place bets of how long it would take for the VP or the hiring manager to call me to take it down. , which, but listen, we're given a ban.
a range of the budgeted role. We're not going to put the whole range out online. So I think the question could be is, hey, recruiter, you have this range. Is that the entire band or is there a certain percentage wiggle room on each side? And I would probably just leave it at that. Sorry,
I think we
Theresa: have time for one more question. Another great one here. How can I renegotiate an offer that I already accepted after receiving a counter offer from my current job? Note the proposed role is new, not clear about the extent of the scope, and it's a long term contract, which means the offer may be fixed for the next five years.[00:56:00]
Melissa: Wow. Well, that's an interesting one because, um, you've received the offer. I'm guessing that you've accepted the offer. Yes. And now you've got a counter offer. This kind of goes back to the transparency area, right? So no doubt when you're in the interview and offer stage, if you're working with the talent acquisition or recruiters, They're going to ask you, where are you in your job search?
Are you interviewing with other organizations? Where are you in the process? I know when I work , with my clients and my candidates, I like to ask my candidates, where are you in the process? If you had to stack one role versus the other, one opportunity over the other, which one are you leaning towards and why?
So we can start sort of looking at how we're going to overcome this potential potential. Challenge that may come up. I think you have to be open and [00:57:00] honest, which is to say, you know what? I really like this offer. I think I can bring you a lot of value. I can help you achieve X, Y, Z to be fair.
I've also been interviewing with others. If you haven't said that to them, it could be a bit of a surprise. It could be a bit of a turn off. Right? Um, but I'd rather you be open and transparent about this is where I am in the process. The last thing you want to do though is play games, right? This isn't meant to be a, , you give me X, I get Y, I come back with Z.
There's a little bit of that, but you really want to be up front in terms of, I've got another offer, I know what I'm looking for to revisit this offer. That's what you want to go back with. Be transparent, be up front, don't think that you've got multiple rounds to go back and forth. It can become a major turnoff to the employer at that stage.
What do you think, Anna?
Anna: I want to quickly add that we should probably add this concept. [00:58:00] And this is part of my like debriefing with candidates is when I'm looking to close them to accept an offer that I'm wanting to make to them is, I ask, have you thought about if you're currently employed, you know, what will happen if you receive a counter offer and, would that influence your decision or not?
Typically, in my experience, people that accept counter offers, they tend to end up having a little target on them eventually because, um. We have signaled to that employer that we were planning on leaving anyway. And so if budgets gets tight or, , there has to be some downsizing of staff, they're likely going to remember the, you know, that a, uh, resignation was given.
So think about that in the salary negotiation prep process, and that goes back to clarity. Why am I looking what's important to me? What do I need? You know, Making a job change is a life decision. It affects, it has that ripple effect of [00:59:00] so many areas of our life. And so it's really important to take the time to really process that.
And what if the company does offer me a counter offer? Do I absolutely hate it? I already have one foot out the door. Um, and what would it look like to stay? And if I did stay, would I really be safe? So, um, I probably for that particular situation, I, you know, and if you're entertaining a role that's contract and not with a fluid job description, those 2 things, plus the timing being off, I would probably stick with the full time offer and the timing question about 5 years confused me.
So, I don't know if you want to elaborate on that, but I think it, um, you can still always be looking for other opportunities, even if you accept that direct hire role.
Theresa: I'm with you. Yes, absolutely. And we are out of time. Otherwise you could talk about this forever. [01:00:00] But please know if we didn't get to your question or if if you wanted to provide more context on your question, we have the Slack community and I promise I will get back to everyone who is asking a question, and a lot of our experts are in there as well.
Um, so by the end of these 12 days, you will have personal answers to those questions, so feel free to provide more contexts . And the last thought that I wanted to add is, one component is there's so much to the salary, right? The money that you're getting, the benefits, but it's also your happiness. And that really came to mind as Anna was saying it.
That is so important. important to. So considering that too, in that factor of like, if you're, especially if you're going in between a new offer and a counter offer, me personally, I'm okay with 5, 000 less, but more happiness and joy in my life. But everyone is different, right? There might be stages in your life where you need that extra money.
And so Going back to the clarity of knowing what is important to you, really knowing what is [01:01:00] important to you. This was an incredible conversation. Thank you both so much. I know that there's a lot of listeners who want to connect with you and learn more from you. Um, Anna, where can our listeners find you and connect with you and follow your incredible advice?
Anna: Thank you. And thank you for hosting this, Teresa. What a gift, uh, to the job search community. And, , thank you for bringing us together. I've had the pleasure of getting to know a bunch of other coaches. So, , you've been a blessing to us as well. So thank you. Um, the best way to find me is always on LinkedIn.
It is my favorite playground. I will always be there. Uh, so please visit me there. Uh, if you want to know more about, , what goes on, , behind the scenes at the Morgan household, you can catch me on Instagram and Facebook. Um, and I am hosting the evolve TA HR experience here in Atlanta in January.
So any folks that are human resources or talent acquisition leaders. [01:02:00] Check that out on LinkedIn as well. Love
Theresa: that. What an amazing event you're having coming up and thank you so much for being here today.
Melissa: Thank you. Melissa,
Theresa: where can our listeners connect with you and follow you?
Melissa: Oh, well, hey, Teresa, first of all, thank you very much for, uh, for this opportunity to speak with you.
And Anna, it's been great to be able to collaborate with you. LinkedIn. I'm usually always online at some point. So. Please connect. I'd be happy to share more of my salary negotiation tips. And of course, there's always my website, www. sworkable. com. I look forward to connecting with all of you.
Theresa: I love that and highly recommend for anyone listening in.
To follow both Melissa and Anna on LinkedIn or any of your platforms of your choosing, because they share incredible advice. And all of your posts are just amazing. So much actual advice. And that's also how we choose the speakers to bring them onto this [01:03:00] event is we're looking for people who. share consistent actual advice.
So it's been an absolute pleasure having you both here with me today. Thank you so much for all that you shared with us, all that actual takeaways that our listeners can implement to ask for their worth in 2025.
Anna: Awesome.
Theresa: Thank you so
Anna: much.
Theresa: And what a powerful session on negotiating your salary with confidence today.
Wow. A huge thank you again to Anna Morgan and Melissa Hodgins for sharing their wisdom, their strategies, and practical advice to empower us all. Today, we learned how to overcome myths that might be holding us back, reframe negotiation fears into collaboration opportunities. And prepare like a pro. We also uncovered ways to advocate for a comprehensive compensation package and techniques to navigate those tricky, often high stakes questions.
And as we mentioned at the end, it really comes all [01:04:00] down to clarity, which is the foundation of all career success. When you know what is really important to, you, when you know your worth and have the tools to communicate it, you step into negotiations with confidence and control, setting the stage for long term success.
Now, before you leave today, turn these insights into action. First, take a moment to jot down the strategies, insights that resonated with you today. What stood out and how can you use it to achieve your goals? Write these takeaways in your 12 Days of Career Goals Guidebook. Second, Identify one concrete action step that you are going to apply.
Maybe it's crafting a negotiation script, practicing as a mentor, researching full compensation packages. Be specific and commit and write it down in your 12 Days of Career Goals guidebook. You're going to be so much more likely to follow through and implement what you're learning when you're writing it down today.
Last but not least, please [01:05:00] engage with us in the Slack channel and continue the conversation. Share your reflections, your questions, or even your first steps toward , implementing them. The link to your Slack community is in your emails. And I am very excited for all of you to join us back here tomorrow when we will be hearing from the LinkedIn editor at large for jobs and career development, Andrew Seaman.
And Lorraine K. Lee on mastering in demand skills for 2025. See you all tomorrow.
Speaker 2: And that's a wrap for today's episode of Career Clarity Unlocked. If you're feeling stuck in that what's next spiral and are ready to finally break free, Let's chat. You can book your free Career Clarity Call, where we'll uncover what's really important to you, tackle any obstacles holding you back, and map out your best next step.
Schedule your free 30 minute call today on careerbloomcoaching. com And before you [01:06:00] head out, be sure to follow us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so you never miss an episode. If today's conversation gave you new insights and inspiration, please leave a review. It really helps us reach more amazing listeners like you.
And don't forget to share this episode with a friend or on social media. Your support truly means the world. Thanks for hanging out with me and I'll see you next time.
