Day 8 Andrew Lorraine
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Speaker: [00:00:00] If you've ever found yourself spiraling down a late night rabbit hole of what am I meant to do and why haven't I found it yet? And let's be honest, who hasn't? Then you're in the right place. I'm Theresa White, career clarity expert and five time certified career coach, and I'm here to help you navigate the question of how to find a career that truly lights you up.
On Career Clarity Unlocked, We're all about those light bulb moments. I'm talking to people who are still trying to figure out what they're meant to do, coaching them live to reach that magical, yes, this is it moment. And we'll also hear from those who've already found their dream careers and figure out exactly how they did it.
Whether you're looking for inspiration or actionable advice on finding a career you love, I've got you covered. Time to unlock some career clarity. Let's dive in.
Transcribed
Theresa: Are you ready to stay ahead of the curve in 2025? In today's session, we're diving into [00:01:00] mastering in demand skills for 2025. With the job market evolving faster than ever, knowing the right roles to target and the skills to prioritize can make or break your career progression. Whether it's understanding emerging job titles, the perfect balance of soft and technical skills, or AI's growing influence, this episode is packed with insights to help you future proof your career.
Let's explore what it takes to stand out and thrive in the workforce of tomorrow. And it is an honor to have two amazing experts joining me today. Andrew LinkedIn editor at large for jobs and career development at LinkedIn, and Lorraine K Lee , a award winning keynote speaker and author. Andrew Seaman, as I said, is the editor at large for jobs and career development at LinkedIn.
He's the editor of the Get Hired newsletter and the host of Get Hired with Andrew Seaman. Before joining LinkedIn in 2018, he was a digital editor at Reuters in New York, where he previously served as a news [00:02:00] agency senior medical journalist. He got his start at Reuters covering the Affordable Care Act and healthcare policy in Washington, D.
C. Lorraine K Lee is an award winning global keynote speaker, instructor for Stanford Continuing Studies and LinkedIn Learning, and the author of Unforgettable Presence, Get Seen, Gain Influence, and Catapult Your Career. She works with Fortune 100 organizations, global teams, and individuals to teach them how to supercharge their professional presence.
Lorraine is recognized as a LinkedIn top voice and has more than 300, 000 LinkedIn followers in a decade of experience as a founding editor at companies like LinkedIn and Prezi. Lorraine has been featured in publications including Forbes, Inks, Bloomberg, and Entrepreneur. Welcome, Andrew. Welcome, Lorraine, to the 12 Days of Career Goals.
Hi, good to see you both.
Andrew: Yeah, great to see you both.
Theresa: So good to have both of you here. And [00:03:00] I cannot wait to dive into all that we have prepared for today. And I'm going to kick it off with the number one question that I'm being getting, and I know this audience is dying to know, and I'm going to ask that to Andrew, new work as a LinkedIn editor at large for jobs and career development.
What are some of the most in demand roles or emerging job titles you've seen for 2025? And are there any that didn't even exist five years ago?
Andrew: Yeah, so that's a great question. And there are a lot that are out there right now that are sort of in the higher, not necessarily hiring spree, but they are in demand.
So what I often tell people is think back to sort of where we are post pandemic. And imagine all of the roles that maybe had a downturn during the pandemic and how we're seeing those pick up. So it ranges from everything from like dental assistants [00:04:00] to veterinarians are very hot right now. 2k think about it though.
Those were jobs that were You know, we saw a downturn during the pandemic because no one wanted to go to the dentist and you know Maybe they weren't taking their dogs or cats to the vets for regular checkups during the pandemic And then people were postponing their weddings and things like that So we're still seeing a lot of demand being driven by Sort of that post pandemic need.
And then we have obviously a I that is focusing a lot of attention right now on people who are early adapters. So I would say, you know, there's a lot of jobs that are Again, not necessarily in demand because it is a tough market right now, but there are jobs where really there is quite a bit of interest from employers to Um at least get contractors in the door.
So yeah, I would say, you know, look at sort of what the pandemic sort of took [00:05:00] away from people in terms of careers. , because we're still seeing people trying to restart from that.
Theresa: That's super insightful, Andrew. And I want to ask a follow up question here. I've been getting a lot of questions lately from people who have been in the travel industry, which obviously we all know was hit really hard by the pandemic.
Um, and they're really afraid to get back into it because they don't feel this as a very secure industry. What are you seeing in that area?
Andrew: Um when it comes to travel, I think it really depends like it's it's difficult to say that any industry is really safe So, you know whenever whenever we look at industries that are typically recession proof So healthcare things like that.
There's pluses and minuses to all of those. So with the healthcare industry, obviously, you know Like I said, we we typically view that as a recession proof, but unfortunately You know, it has its own downside of burnout So, you know while healthcare really did sustain itself, obviously, through the [00:06:00] pandemic because it was in such demand.
We saw the tragic downside of nurses and all these people becoming burned out. Um, when it comes to travel, , obviously they're in as in flows. But I think we're seeing corporate travel get back to levels that Existed before the pandemic, so it's going to be a high spot right now. But, um, so, so it's worth, I think, going after what you're truly interested in and accepting the risks that come with it.
Um, and if you do worry that maybe there will be a downturn in the future and that your industry might be , affected, it might be, , prudent to look at side hustles or things where you can, , address that gap. So maybe if you're looking in the travel industry and you're saying, Hey, I, I work as a corporate travel booker, , maybe also look into a side skill to say like, how can we fill this gap in case there is another pandemic or another crunch where people aren't allowed to travel?
So maybe that is working with telecommunications. , [00:07:00] organizational, , psychologist or something like that to bridge sort of that in person slash hybrid divide. I know Lorraine's obviously been incredible with that, , giving people tips on how to present virtually. Um, so yeah, so it, I would say again, it's, it's about Finding what you actually want to do, um, either accepting those risks or addressing them.
Theresa: I love that advice, Andrew. Thanks so much for sharing that. And I really agree that there is a big balance between what do you love to do and what is in demand in the industry. And you need to find something where hopefully both can be met, , because otherwise. There is some, well, when there's no industry demand, it's going to be really hard to find those roles.
But then if you're moving into something that you really don't want just for stability, it also might really impact your happiness and probably your career progression. And Lorraine, I want to bring you in here. And as a keynote speaker and author, I wonder if you have advice for our job [00:08:00] seekers or professionals on identifying and mastering the skills that will be most critical for their professional growth in 2025.
Lorraine: Yes, of course. And before I dive in, I just want to let your audience know, Theresa, , Andrew and I used to be co workers. So for anyone who's watching, just a fun fact. So it's really fun for us to be together today. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, to answer your question, I would say, , the biggest skill, and of course, you mentioned the book that I'm writing, um, It's going to be around presence, , but not presence necessarily in the way that, um, you might initially think of it when I say presence, a lot of us think, okay, executive presence.
So how I'm redefining presence, , in my upcoming book is to really be centered around, , both how and where you are seeing. So when we are applying for jobs, there is a lot of competition now, as Andrew said, so it's a tough market, it can be really hard to stand out. So your presence is going to be. To ensuring that hiring managers and recruiters are going to be impressed by you.
Um, for example, you obviously want to show [00:09:00] up well for interviews and know how to answer their questions, but there's also a lot of other pieces that come with presence. So you also want to make sure that. Any touch point that the employer has with you, you know, even when you're not face to face contribute to that overall presence.
So that's things like your LinkedIn or perhaps even something as small as your email signature, right? It's really important to be intentional with all these different aspects. Um, apart from the typical advice, of course, of making sure, you know, how to tell your story and talk about your past experience and all of that.
Um, and then once you get the job, you still want to continue being intentional about your presence holistically. Um, that's going to be really important in, uh, setting you up for success, building your reputation within a company.
Theresa: I love that advice. Lorraine is super insightful and it's something that I make sure my clients are really focused on because when we are in an interview and we tell them, Oh, I'm very detail oriented.
But then they look at our LinkedIn profile and it doesn't reflect that, that's a red flag. Or [00:10:00] if you say like, Oh, I always stay up to date on leading trends in my industry, and they visit your LinkedIn profile and they see your posting about it. It's a big plus, right? So it's those little ways where you can prove what you're actually saying in the interview.
Lorraine: Yeah, exactly. It's all about consistency to like to your point. I've had people who say, Oh, I've met the CEO. They're super professional and they're so impressive. And then they want to add them on LinkedIn. There's like no profile picture. It's really sparse. You're like, Oh, this, these two things are not connecting.
So you want to create consistency. Be, be intentional about all those touch points that you have with someone.
Theresa: I absolutely agree. Consistency is so important and you don't want to leave one impression, as you said, in person, and then a completely different presence online, LinkedIn, or even other platforms.
Exactly. Thanks for sharing that, Lorraine. Andrew, I have a question for you on the skills that are so rapidly evolving. You know, [00:11:00] technical skills are evolving. Interpersonal skills are becoming more important. Can you share any specific skills that shop seekers should prioritize to stay competitive in the coming year?
Andrew: Um, we put a list out every year about sort of the most in demand skills, and one of them that sort of was the overarching theme this year was adaptability. So I think that is that remains top of mind for pretty much everyone because things are changing so quickly, not just with AI, but everything, you know, the labor market is changing.
is shifting very quickly. Um, you know, as the federal reserve makes changes, as companies try to adapt to their ecosystem. So really, they're looking for people who they could throw into their businesses who will perform well, but also be able to adapt to that changing environment. So adaptability, I think, is the main thing and showing that you have the capability to stretch or , expand your worst skill set when needed.
Um, I [00:12:00] think that is going to be the biggest benefit that you could bring to an employer because they want to know that if they invest in you that you're going to continue to return for them. And, , in general, I think it is looking at what's especially important within your industry. Um, soft skills are obviously very important right now as people look at a I, um, I think that's something to sort of dip your toes into and making sure that your soft skills are polished or improving because, you know, as AI becomes more of a tool in the workplace.
Companies are going to want people that they can rely on to do that human part of the job. , in terms of technical skills, obviously it's good to know how to use AI. Um, right now it's pretty limited unless there's something very specific. So you just want to be able to maybe use Microsoft Copilot or chat GPT or one of those digital note takers or to be able to bounce ideas off of it and [00:13:00] maybe go into interviews and say, Hey, here's one way that I've been able to use chat GPT.
In my day to day work and these are the results and this is why i'm doing that And then you know, like I said look at your specific industry and see what the technical skills are And what is on the horizon because I think that's what employers want to see. So if you are an engineer You could talk about how you use AI to maybe troubleshoot your code or find issues in that.
Um, if you are an accountant, you can talk about maybe the new, newest technology for bookkeeping, recordkeeping, newest advances. I think this trick is to really show employers that you're staying on the cutting edge of technology when it comes to hard skills.
Theresa: That is really great advice of staying on cutting edge and a follow up question as well is a lot of times it depends obviously on the technology, but a lot of times I tell my clients that you might not have to be the expert in coming up [00:14:00] software, but if you spend one day really trying to understand that system.
You're going to go into the interview in a different way, more prepared to talk about it. Would you agree with that, or do you see most of the time like you actually have to be an expert in? Any kind of new and emerging technology?
Andrew: just Honestly, yeah, like you said just knowing enough to get through a conversation I think Is sort of all you need to know at that moment unless they are looking for someone to be an expert in that specific area Um, you know, you don't want to lie.
You don't want to Sort of bs your way through the interview because that'll come back to bite you. , But you usually you don't need to know every in and out and every company's going to have their own You Flavor of how they use technology. So if there are any recruiters out there, um, you know, one of the things that we often talk about is applicant tracking systems.
So there are so many different applicant tracking systems. So being an expert in each one is not going to serve you. But if [00:15:00] you have a applicant basic understanding of a lot of them, that is going to be much better for employers because at least you have a foundation that they could build upon. , so that's just one example.
So I wouldn't worry about being an expert. , just having enough where you can sort of stumble through and especially talking the jargon that you need. You don't want to be overly complicated in your, answers, but as long as you can, you can use acronyms and know what the employer is talking about when they use acronyms that.
That's a good sign for them.
Theresa: That's huge. And that's something I emphasize is it's more about speaking their language than knowing all the ins and outs, but understanding what we are talking about and then being able to respond to that. And Andrew, you just spoke about hard and soft skills. And I want to ask Lorraine, , , what do you see currently, this, the balance of hard and soft skills?
skills are soft skills like communication and leadership. We're simply put hard skills. Do you see employers leaning towards more than the other at the moment?
Lorraine: I [00:16:00] think Andrew put it really well. I mean, I think with the onset of A. I um and just how much information there is available online, I think soft skills are really becoming important and can really be what differentiates you from again the wide amount of applicants out there.
The hard skills. I think one could argue you can go to school for that. You can learn online. Or soft skills might be a little bit more nuanced. Maybe you need a mentor, someone to give you feedback. You really need to Kind of put it into practice and experiment a little bit. We won't always get it right for those more difficult soft skills, but these are something that needs to be practiced and sort of need to be in the environment to do that.
And I think as Andrew said, there's, we're going to be relying on the human skills, the human aspect, being able to be a good cross functional partner. Being able to understand, , how to get buy in from other, , individuals. Right. So those are, are harder, I think, to learn, um, but are super, super important in advancing one's career and making sure that you get seen.
Um, at work. And so I think [00:17:00] knowing those more nuanced skills, those soft skills, I think, , as much as you can lean into those and get guidance from your manager, maybe that your company offers training programs. There's a bunch of LinkedIn learning courses as well on different soft skills. I think that's that's really key and will be a key differentiator, especially as more technology and changes come.
Andrew mentioned adaptability is going to be a key skill. Totally agree with that. I love that inside
Theresa: Lorraine and a follow up question here is it's often a lot easier for people to demonstrate hard skills, right? If I have a certification, I can say that I have that I can put that on my LinkedIn profile on my resume and also a lot of times I can quantify that easier.
The soft skills are a little bit more difficult to demonstrate because everyone can put communication on their LinkedIn profile, but that doesn't mean they're a fantastic communicator. Do you have any advice on how people effectively can demonstrate that they have those soft skills?
Lorraine: Yeah, so there's two things that come [00:18:00] to mind.
Uh, the first thing is when someone asks you about your skills, not to just say, Oh, I am a strong communicator, but to try to give examples and share stories about a time that you actually communicated, uh, effectively. I think showing rather than telling is always really important. And then the second thing that I always like to say is.
To really take advantage of the LinkedIn recommendation slash testimonials section and to be able to go to past employers knowing, okay, I want to get a job in this industry and let's say communication is a really important skill to go to a past employer, a past colleague and say, Hey, can you write out some examples of how I was an effective communicator?
So to have someone else kind of highlight that instead of you just saying it, that's really wonderful social proof and also shows that you are. You're a great person to work with and that your past coworkers can kind of vouch for that skill.
Theresa: Love that you brought this in. Lincoln recommendation are so important.
I, I'm 100 percent agree. [00:19:00] It's, it's your proof and it really shows, it shows to employers what others are saying about your work. It's not just you talking about yourself, but it's really the other perspective that is so valuable. And I see it even more important as references these days.
Lorraine: Yeah, for sure.
Theresa: Andrew, we just already touched on AI, which is the hot topic. Um, I want to dive deeper into AI and ask you is how is AI transforming the job market and how is AI reshaping roles and what specific AI related skills or knowledge do professionals need to master to remain relevant and competitive?
Andrew: Those are great questions.
So in terms of how it's transforming the job market, I think we're still in that learning phase. So when we think of a I adoption, it's sort of like an S curve where companies are going to throw the technology at everything it Possibly can to figure out. Hey, how can we actually make [00:20:00] our work more efficient, more effective?
Um, and there's gonna be some wins. There's gonna be some losses. , but there's going to be sort of that downslope. That's sort of that pause. Okay, we have all this data on what we can use AI for, but it's going to take a little while to get that upswing again. So it's going to take a little while to actually get to that upswing where we have like concrete evidence of like, this is how we can wield this technology for good when it comes to business.
, we are seeing, I think some research that's showing that AI can be really helpful in, , customer service roles. So talking people through conflict management, , and Those sort of, you know, minefields. The question is whether it's actually making people better at their jobs, or if it's just sort of being used as a crutch.
I think that's going to take a little while to find out. , so right now, I would say that it's a great time for experimentation. [00:21:00] across all sectors. , and when it comes to actually what skills are needed to excel, it really is those human skills because most people are not going to be asked to build AI models.
Um, but they are going to be asked to engage with AI models. So those large language models that they're called LLMs. And a lot of that is knowing how to ask, specific questions, how to interact with people, how to engage with a computer, unfortunately. Uh, so we all do that all day, but you have to know how to, how that large language model, like ChatGPT4 versus ChatGPT4.
GPT 3. 5 differ from one another. Um, you know, do you tell it how to do something or do you tell it not to do something? Like those are those specific things that you have to figure out what works best. , so really just playing around with the different models, reading what you can on how it's being used in your industry is going to be really important.
But then leaning into [00:22:00] those like human skills, like Lorraine said, , have people say, Hey, you know, this person is a great manager. This person is great at asking questions at probing into different topics because those are the things that are going to be needed to get the AI to actually give results that are beneficial.
And then also just sort of thinking of possibilities. One of the things that I like to do is sort of come up with ideas of like, Hey, we are not there yet at using this technology to do X, Y, or Z, but we might be in a few years. So think of like, how can I use this technology to improve. , the bottom line for my company, my industry, and then when the time is right, you could say to someone in power or someone who's your manager, or maybe you have that license to say, Hey, why don't we do?
Why don't we do this and try it out? So that way you have those sort of. Projects in the the waiting room. So that way, when the time is right, you can sort of trot them out. So it's really about like experimenting, knowing how to engage with the technology, [00:23:00] knowing how your soft skills will really apply there and how you can lean on that when someone says, Hey, I don't want to talk to an AI bot.
I want to talk to a human. Um, and then also just thinking, , what can I do in the future? Thanks to this technology.
Theresa: That is a really great advice, and it's both right is knowing how the technology works and how you can leverage it. But then, as you said, leaning into the interpersonal skills, because that's something I will.
Who knows? But not for a long time. Replace. I don't see ChatGPT taking on any leadership skills anytime soon. Okay, who knows, right? 100 years from now, it might be a different story. But, um, but really being able to show those soft skills. And I want to ask you since you're learning, you're an author, Andrew, you're working with a team of editors.
Specifically for anyone who's job involves writing. How is AI impacting that specific field? And there's a [00:24:00] lot of people that are very scared about losing their jobs, being replaced by AI. What do you see?
Andrew: I
Lorraine: think, I think knowing how to write is such an important fundamental skill, and I'm a little bit concerned with it with the adoption of AI that people feel like, Oh, I don't have to harness the skill or work on this skill. The thing is about AI when it writes things, sometimes it's too slow. It's pretty good for like short communications.
You can kind of take it as it is, um, but for more nuanced communication, um, for, for longer things like books, like you should not be copy and pasting. You still need to have that skill to know what to edit, to know what sounds kind of funny, kind of strange, um, not supernatural. Um, so I, I, my emphasis is writing is such an important skill.
Everyone should still practice that skill. A. I can be a sounding board and maybe give [00:25:00] inspiration, but you need that fundamental skill to know kind of where I is sort of missing the mark.
Andrew: Yeah, and I completely agree. I use a I almost every day. I'm not gonna say every day because there's some days where you know, I'm just sort of powering through stuff and I don't need it.
Um, The way that I use AI is often as sort of like an editor, kind of, um, so things where I know I have issues with, I will ask it to double check me on. So one of the things that I've always been bad at is tenses. So, you know, when you, when you write and, you know, you're talking in the past tense and all of a sudden you're in the present and stuff, I, I jump around all the time.
So, as you can probably tell from my answer. So, putting a piece of writing into ChatGPT or, um, Copilot and just say, hey, you know, are my tenses, you know, And it'll go through and say, hey, I would change this. I would change that. And by the way, this should [00:26:00] be plural or something like that. That tends to be the most helpful.
Or if I have a large transcript, sort of from a podcast. So I have a podcast that's weekly. And sometimes I need to go back to it. To the transcript from months ago, and I'll remember the conversation, but I won't necessarily remember like the top five points my guests made. So I'll go in, I'll plug it in chat GPT and say, can you give me the top five takeaways from those?
And it's always sort of, and kind of around the edges answer, I'll call it. It's not very specific because, um, chat GPT, all of the AIs, they're not great with specificity. So if you ask it to create an article based on that transcript, you will find that a lot of that stuff is made up. And even if you say like cite your sources, it will make up the sources because it wants to please you.
Um, so I never use it to write something or anything like that. And also what I found using [00:27:00] it so much is that it relies on certain words as crutches. So I was helping someone, oh god, I think it was like, Uh, two months ago, and they sent me a piece of their writing and I said, I'm not, I'm not gonna edit this for you, because I'm like, you used AI to write it?
And they said, how did you know that? And I said, because I said this last sentence here, I see it all the time in Chad, GBT. And I said, no human will write the sentence. So I was just like, what's the
Theresa: sentence? Do you remember?
Andrew: Um, it was something like, you know, like, it was like an in summary. It's basically, it was like, it wrote a very.
Um, it was a very formulaic, like, in conclusion, and, you know, maybe, you know, a freshman college student will write something like that, but no one really has that in their style. So, especially this person was supposed to be a writer, so I was like, this is AI, so I'm not going to take my time to edit it if you just [00:28:00] wrote this with AI.
, so yeah, I, I wouldn't use it for actual writing, but as, like, an assistant, as someone who can check my work, as someone who can say, like, hey, does this make sense? Um, you know, I'm coming back from a few days of vacation and, , after a holiday and a bunch of other stuff, so if I write something, I'm probably going to say, like, You know, am I cognizant?
Am I awake here? Uh, you know, what what does that mean? So I think that that's mostly how I use it um, and , you can bounce ideas off of it. You could you could ask your questions, but you can't take it as gospel because also it's not updated in real time most of the in most cases
Theresa: Absolutely agree with both of you and sharing.
Thank you for sharing these insights. And it really brings brings it back to humans are still needed. We won't be replaced. Yes, it will make us more efficient and they can catch our mistakes. But in the end, and to your point, Andrew, what you just said is Since I'm hosting this 12 day Livestream, I use chat GPT for [00:29:00] key points and about a quarter of it is usable, three quarters of the output I can't use.
So it's not, you can never treat it as if. It's, it's a, it gives you an idea of a starting point, but then you actually just have to write it for yourself. It, it really can't replace a human writer. Lorraine, I want to bring it back to more of the hiring process. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure we see or we've seen a lot of employers sharing inside and on their hiring and retention struggles.
And I was wondering if you have any insight on how job seekers can leverage information to align their skills and their personal brand with what companies truly need.
Lorraine: This question touches on an important piece of the interview puzzle, which is that it's really important to find out as much as you can about the employer and come to your conversations with smart questions.
So when you come to an interview and you ask [00:30:00] questions, not only is the employer impressed that you did your research and you're actually showing that you're interested in the company. But you can really glean a lot of valuable insights from their responses, so that can help shape how you address the conversation moving forward and figure out what exactly it is about yourself or your experience that you want to highlight.
Um, you also talked about or asked about personal branding. So, I think the first thing to realize, and Andrew and I have talked about this before, is that everyone has a personal brand. And so even before going into an interview, or as you think about sort of how you want to present yourself to the world, and what sort of presence you want to have, is that you do need to think about your personal brand, and what it is, and how you want to define it.
So I have a simple framework that I like to use for people starting off, because I know personal branding can feel like this. Like big term big phrase. It's like, oh, it's only for like the marketers or like the loud people Um, but essentially I call it the epic framework. , so your personal brand is made up of your experiences It's made up of your personality.
It's made up of your identity [00:31:00] and then also your community So experiences, of course working experiences things you've done in the past maybe life experiences as well Your personality, for example, I'm an introvert. So I that's part of my personal brand. I talk about that. , your identity. So the values that you have sort of how, , how you like to operate and then perhaps like personal background as well.
And then your community. So even if you have these three things sort of set up, , It doesn't matter if your community is not viewing you in the way that you want to be viewed. So you need to make sure that the perception that you want to give off is being interpreted in the right way by your network, by those around you.
So, I would say to start off, once you get those four steps, then you can start thinking about, okay, I have a sense for what my personal brand is and sort of what makes me, me. And then as the employer asks certain questions, or I see, oh, they're struggling in this area, or they're having trouble retaining, , employees for this reason, you can sort of pick and draw from, , your personal brand.
From all those four points to figure out, okay, this is what I'm going to share, um, in my interview, or this is how I'm going to sort of present myself to give [00:32:00] me the best chance of getting that role.
Theresa: That is such a great framework. It was epic experience, personality,
Multiple: identity, and
Theresa: community. I love this.
This was such a great framework to think about how we show up and , , what the different facets are that we want to show to the world and to the hiring managers. Lorraine, your book, Unforgettable Presence, which I'm really excited about, highlights the importance of executive presence, and you've already touched on that.
But I want to dive deeper in that and hear from you how you define professional presence for professionals at various stages in their career. Is it the same for entry level versus a CEO? And second question is, why is it becoming a must have in the modern job market?
Lorraine: Yeah. So, um, as I mentioned before, I define it as both how and where you are seen.
Um, and executive presence is going to be one piece of that puzzle. In the past, I mentioned earlier, we [00:33:00] hear the word presence. We think, oh, presence, executive presence, how we show up in a room, in the boardroom specifically. But I really believe presence has evolved, especially over the past few years. And it's something that we should all be learning from the start of our careers.
And it really does, does go beyond how we show up in the boardroom. It's really about who we are. How we show up on LinkedIn. It's about knowing how to appear confident and competent on video. Um, it's like the smaller things, like how do we leverage small talk impactfully, um, how do we manage our team? So it's actually a lot of things that really add up over time, um, your overall presence and reputation and.
I really believe that when you are really proactive about your presence, um, I think I mentioned this last time I was on your show, Theresa, but you become the CEO of your own career. Instead of letting things happen to you, you just become a lot more intentional. Um, and unfortunately, so many of us. Fall into that trap where we're not really taught how to build our presence and how to be intentional about it.
I know certainly that was a challenge I faced early on in my career, sort of [00:34:00] like assuming that I'll get promoted after a certain number of years, or there's just like a logical progression to my career, and it might be so at the start. But it gets a lot harder the more you advance in an organization.
So, , for professionals who really want to be seen as leaders to really lean into their full potential, especially with so many things changing and shifting around us, I feel like presence is really that, that key.
Theresa: This is so interesting, Lorraine. And I love that this is a topic you're focused on and are helping people to develop, because as you said, it's not a skill we're really taught anywhere else.
And I'm wondering, because it's called executive presence for someone who's early in their career. Do you feel it is just as important for them as for someone who's more senior?
Lorraine: I, I, yes. Um, I, but I like to call it more broadly professional presence because I feel like we hear executive presence and then especially for people younger, they're like, Oh, it's for executives.
It's for people who are more senior, who have reached a certain level. [00:35:00] Um, executive presence. I do feel like it's one part of the puzzle, but like I said, I feel like there's so many. different pieces that go into presence. And also executive presence means so many different things to different people as well.
And so, , unless you're really sort of specific on what that means to you, I think approaching presence from a more holistic, broad perspective, , ensures that you're sort of covering your bases across many different things, not things that you perhaps stereotypically think come with executive presence.
Theresa: That's really insightful. And there was one piece that you mentioned that I want to follow up on is small talk, which is really scary for most of the people identifying as introverts. And it might also be surprising. Why is small talk relevant when we're talking about our career or job interviews? First of all, why is it important?
And any tips for people who find this very challenging? for listening.
Lorraine: Small talk definitely gets a bad rap. [00:36:00] Um, which makes sense the way small topic small talk is typically done, right? I think the problem with small talk is that so many of us are doing it on autopilot So you'll get on a call like oh, how are you?
I've good. How are you? I'm good. Thanks And then sort of this like awkward silence, but small talk can be really strategic and small talk is actually one of the best ways that we can build relationships with each other. And so sort of breaking out of that autopilot and leaning into strategies. For example, there's one called conversational threading.
So you, Theresa, we got on a call and you asked me, um, how my day is going. I am going, not going to just say good, but I might say. Oh, it's really wonderful. So, you know, changing up the even the positive language I use. It's really wonderful. Um, I went on a walk this morning. It's a beautiful day here and I got to listen to my favorite podcast and now I'm super excited to be talking with you.
And now you Theresa have some threads that you can pull on right to follow [00:37:00] up and to create more of that conversation to learn about me and then vice versa. I might get some more information from you as well. So small talk is very powerful. Just the problem is that many of us. Are thinking again intentionally about it.
So again, small talk, part of presence, be intentional about it. It can really, uh, help build those relationships, which are very foundational to advancing, , in your career and sort of building that influence in an organization.
Theresa: I love that you have a different perspective on small talk, that it's not something you just have to do awkwardly, but that it can be something that's powerful in building relationships.
Starting a conversation that's just natural and much more enjoyable for both parties.
Lorraine: Yes, exactly.
Theresa: Before we are moving into Q& A, and I already see a lot of great questions coming through here, so anyone in the audience who has questions for Lorraine and Andrew, this is a great time to drop them into the chat.
But first of all, Andrew, I really want to ask, looking [00:38:00] ahead into 2025, what are some of your boldest predictions for the job market in the new year?
Andrew: Um, I think probably the biggest one is hybrid slash remote, , versus an office work. So right now we continue to see. , remote jobs continue to evaporate.
Um, unfortunately, a lot of people kind of set themselves up for failure by only applying to remote jobs. So if you really don't need a remote job, try casting your net toward hybrid or in office jobs because there's much less competition in those areas. , I think The latest that I had is that about 8 percent of all job postings are remote, but 40 percent of all job postings go toward those positions.
So I think over the next year, we're going to continue to see those jobs evaporate, especially as employers continue to hold power. Um, and unfortunately, I think, like I said, a lot of job seekers will make it. more difficult on [00:39:00] themselves if they are only applying for those remote jobs. So I think next year, I think we're going to see those to continue to evaporate, but I think we're also going to just see employers make a more bold stance on, Hey, we want you in office now.
Theresa: That is a bold prediction. And I'm, unfortunately I'm with you because I think there's a lot of value to remote work, but it is declining. How do you see it as hybrid? Do you see hybrid Changing going up, going down more days in the office versus less.
Andrew: I think it's more time in the office. Um, you know, I think a lot of employers put value on serendipitous moments and those small talks that happen.
And I think that is beneficial for people in their careers. , Unfortunately, I think, , something else that is a result of this is that people are applying for jobs where they really are not interested or not interested in the job, but they're actually not qualified for the work. So we're hearing from a lot of [00:40:00] recruiters and talent executives that they're just being flooded with.
Applications that, , really are not in line at all with the needs of the company. So that's obviously difficult when you're a job seeker and you're looking for anything. But, um, you know, I think we might also see sort of companies. Deploy different technologies, trying to comb through those volumes. So, you know, I think we're going to see people that are being called back to the office.
We're going to see, , companies take a stronger stance. , it might be sort of like three days in the office, two days out, might be five days in the office, but then also I think it might have a backfire effect for job seekers. , but it, that remains to be seen.
Theresa: Yeah, we will see for 2025. But I love that prediction.
Andrew, thanks for sharing that with us. And a question now that you're talking about remote hybrid in the office for Lorraine, when it comes to your professional presence, is there a different, , when you work remotely versus when you're in the office on how your presence. [00:41:00] Is perceived
Lorraine: and also shown definitely.
Yeah. Um, of course, there's, there's going to be overlap, , in certain things, right? The small talk you have virtually can be similar to the small talk you have in person. , but there are definitely additional considerations. , as Andrew mentioned, like a lot of companies, I think will also, , be focused on hybrid, which means that video is still a big part of your day.
So. Um, to be intentional about your virtual presence, your video presence, and how you come across. And again, you want to make sure that's consistent. If you are someone who has never met your coworkers before, and this is the first impression, you know, having like a really messy room or like being in a dark room and they can't really see you and you sort of just look not ready and not prepared, that's going to impact their impression of you and the presence that you give off at work.
So, um, being knowledgeable about what it takes to, , show up well virtually, I think is really important. And I know a lot of people are like, it's been many years, like we already know how to do video, but I still, I mean, I'm sure you've seen it [00:42:00] too, like get on calls and you're like, Oh, like what's, what's going on there.
So, uh, there's still a lot of opportunity, I think for people to learn this skill. , it's more than just, you know, knowing how to mute and unmute on camera, but, Creating a whole presence for yourself online. 100%.
Theresa: One of the ones I see, I still see or hear about regularly is people taking a virtual job interview that is on camera in the car.
And it's, I know some, some people might not have another option. Maybe that is the only space that is quiet and I get it. But if it is something that's avoidable, yes, write that background. It's about how professional and how prepared you were for that conversation.
Lorraine: Yeah. And like, if you had to do it in a car, at least, ideally put it on a stand so it's not shaking and you like holding the camera, , so there's still things you can do if that's the situation.
But like you said, like, ideally it would be like, like on a laptop, um, hopefully in your home [00:43:00] or some like work, uh, work area.
Andrew: Yeah, and I've actually I've interviewed people who were in their cars. Um, and they viewed like the one time they were like the top candidate, but they they just preface it and said, Hey, you know, I, I work from home, my child's asleep, and there's really no place to take it.
And, you know, as someone who lives in New York in a small apartment, I'm like, I get it. Don't worry about it. You know, so, yeah. So it's almost like just preferencing it as long as you acknowledge it and say like, Hey, I'm in my Subaru because X, Y, and Z normally I wouldn't do this. But, and you know, and that way at least you get it over with and say like, Hey, but everything else is like, you know, normal as, as can be.
Theresa: I love that example, Andrew. Yeah. And it does, it shows that you thought about it. It's not like, Oh, I forgot about this interview. I'm going to take it while I'm on the way to grocery shopping, but like, no, I thought about this. I thought, where's the. Most quietest place I can have a good conversation. And then, then you share that with the interviewer.
It [00:44:00] definitely leaves a different impression. Lorraine last question before we move into Q and A for anyone who wants to move up, change careers or land on your role in 2025, what are the top three actual steps that you recommend that they take early in 2025?
Lorraine: Three actual steps. Okay. I know Andrew will agree with this one on the first one is updating your LinkedIn profile.
And then I think Theresa, you have a link of mine. It's part one of a 40 plus page guide for how to optimize your LinkedIn presence. So I encourage you all to check that out if you're not really sure where to start, because I know there are a lot of things you can do. , updating your LinkedIn profile is going to be key.
The second thing which we touched on just now is making sure you have a strong virtual presence. So, again, subconsciously or not, people are making judgments about how we show up on camera. So making sure you have good lighting, you have your framing set up, your eye contact, you know how to use your hands on camera.
All those things are going to make an impact when you are doing interviewing. I believe. Most interviewing is still virtual now. , so that's a key [00:45:00] thing you want to make sure you get down. And then the last one is recording yourself, answering questions, and also giving presentations. I think sometimes You know, it's always very awkward watching yourself back, but if you want to improve, if, for example, you're always getting the first round interview, but they don't move you past first round, like, maybe it's something about the way you're showing up in those interviews.
So watching yourself back, being intentional about, okay, , am I answering this? Well, showing that recording to someone you trust. I think that can be a really wonderful way to keep improving and making sure you're showing up as your best self in those interviews.
Theresa: That is a beautiful recommendation that I a hundred percent stand behind.
It is uncomfortable. Most people do not like watching themselves on video. , I had to get, it was really hard for myself to get used to that, but it makes such a difference. It makes a huge difference when you, you come across differently than you see yourself as you're speaking. And it's, it's a game changer for [00:46:00] interviews.
Tons of questions, , here from our audience. Where do we start? Okay, we'll go here. What strategies do you recommend for individuals who are transitioning into new industries or career paths to quickly acquire the necessary in demand skills?
Andrew: Uh, so I think, , usually the best thing to do is figure out what is being, what are the foundational skills of that industry, first of all, so do informational interviews, look at job descriptions. For those roles, job descriptions are not necessarily the best written, um, guides. Uh, a lot of times, they're just, you know, a hiring manager will copy and paste something and it'll get copy and pasted into the job description.
And it's just sort of like a game of telephone, but it's a good place to start. And then informational interviews, asking people, , what skills they have is not usually going to get you a great answer, But asking them what they do day to day [00:47:00] will give you sort of the activities that, , you can sort of base that information on.
And then what I would say is look at professional associations. Every single career, every industry, every profession has a professional, , association. So they're going to be the ones who are going to be able to tell you, Hey, this is now coming around the corner. Um, this is sort of the update on this approach.
So taking. In all of that information will give you sort of the foundational things that you need to know, But also it will show you sort of what's coming around the corner So you can sort of start reading up on that
Theresa: 100 percent agree , i'm sure you agree with that linkedin learning for me has been such an incredibly valuable source Um, especially because there's so much short form as well as longer form content where you can be I think you can watch a nano course, right?
To get a quick idea about what is this topic about. And then you find longer courses. Is there any [00:48:00] advice, any recommendations you have who, for people who might be new to LinkedIn Learning?
Lorraine: I think There's so there's many, many courses, so that's a good thing.
It can also get overwhelming. So I think starting up with Nano might be a good sort of first step because they are meant to be 10 minutes or less. So coming up with like, I don't know, three different courses that look interesting to you and like setting up some time on a Friday to review them. I think it's a nice way to sort of get that.
Consistency of learning into your schedule like making it a habit and to not get overwhelmed because there are a lot of choices, which is a good thing, but I think just like, go on there like find the first three that look interesting to you and then and then start there. Don't feel like you have to like, watch everything all at once or like in a, , a certain time period.
That's such a good point. And
Theresa: that's actually why I do love LinkedIn Learning so much, because you can, like, everyone is busy, right? And if you tell someone like, Oh, you need to take this 200 hour certification, people are like, uh, I can't. [00:49:00] But if you're like, okay, how about starting this a 10 minute course once a week, and maybe 30 minutes a week, and that consistent upskilling can make such a big difference.
Oh, um, I think this will be an easy one to answer. Is there such a thing as too many recommendations on your LinkedIn profile? I don't think so. What do you think, Andrew?
Andrew: No, I don't think so. Um, the one thing I often see though is people who complain that they run out of connections , I think linkedin caps it at 30 000 , and I think the whole point of that is that really you should only be connecting with people you can actually maintain somewhat of a relationship with , so I think 30, 000 is probably more than generous so recommendations.
No, I don't think you could have too many um as long as they're Substantive, um, I think that would be the caveat is if it's just like 50 people saying hey great And or something like that [00:50:00] that is not going to to cut it and that that might actually raise more flags than anything for Potential employers, but yeah, as long as they're decent You Substantive recommendations, , the sky's the limit.
Lorraine: Yeah, I'm fully with you. Yeah. Yeah. But one thing I would add to is, um, and I would touch on this earlier, but, um, it's, it's like such a strong, um, vehicle for social proof. Right. I like to call it, um, Yelp for professionals. Like if you had two identical profiles and one person had, Even five recommendations, 10, 20, and then this person has zero and you're a hiring manager and you're going to both the profiles, even before reading the recommendations, you're going to just, , we all like to make mental shortcuts, right?
We're busy. Oh, this person has recommendations. This person, people like working with them. I'm going to assume that. Right. And so even just having a few on your profile can make a big difference. But like Andrew said, you obviously want them to be quality, , recommendations, but just like, Understanding that that mental shortcut does happen, and [00:51:00] that's the power that recommendations can have.
Theresa: 100%! And now that you make the connection with Yelp, yeah, if I look at two Italian restaurants, one with no recommendation, the other one with 10 5 star recommendations, I won't look at anything else. I'll go to the one with the 5 star. Yeah, exactly. And it's the same, right? It is the same. All right, um, let's make time for a couple of more questions here.
What advice would you give to young professionals who are still exploring career paths, but want to ensure they're focusing on the most in demand skills for the future?
Lorraine: I can add my two cents to this. , The first thing I would say, I think it's definitely a great idea to focus on in demand skills. I think something that happened with me when I was younger in my career is I got very uptight thinking, okay, I have to find the perfect job and I have to follow this progression and to remember, especially when you're young in your career, almost any move you make is going to be a place where you [00:52:00] can learn.
Whether it's learning something you like to do, something you don't like to do, that is going to be helpful data that you can take with you and slowly refine what it is exactly that you want to do. So definitely always be sort of making decisions I think based on where you're going to learn the most, but maybe don't stress as much about having it be the exact right opportunity or the exact perfect company.
Andrew: And I, I completely agree. And I think one thing that I would suggest too is don't put too much pressure on yourselves because, you know, you're fresh out of school, you're maybe one, two, three years into your profession. No one's expecting you to lead or save the company. If you do, that's fantastic. But, you know, one thing that I hear from people a lot is that, Young younger professionals they you know, they think they have like a couple years under their belt and they deserve to be ceo That is not the case.
There's still a lot of learning that needs to be done in some cases sure, there's going to be wunderkinds that [00:53:00] um can you know, All of a sudden show up and run a fortune 500 company, but that is going to be the exception not the rule , so enjoy that learning time enjoy that experience to make mistakes because you're not necessarily going to get that back You And then the other thing I would say, too, is use your You and and sort of your stature.
Um, to incredibly impress people. So what I usually tell people is that, , especially when they're just starting out, everyone is going to underestimate you. So use that to your advantage and sort of knock it out of the ballpark because that gets, exceedingly more difficult to do as you age, as you find yourself more cemented in your profession.
So take advantage of your position and don't put too much pressure on yourselves. Um, you know, enjoy that, enjoy that time.
Theresa: That's so, that's, that's great insight. I love that. Because a lot of times when we're new in the workforce, we're like, ah, like, I'm going to take that step back. I'm not going to put myself out there.
[00:54:00] But that's great. You come with so many fresh new ideas. You're straight out of college. You might see things differently than people who have worked there for 10 years. And not being able to lean into that and share that is huge. The next question I see on here is, um, Andrew, you have mentioned adaptability as the number one skill, but how do you demonstrate that on your LinkedIn profile, in interviews, in conversations?
Andrew: Honestly, it's kind of goes back to what Lorraine said early on about, , making sure that you're bringing the receipts to the conversation. So explain, you know how you were set up with a challenge, but you were able to knock it out of the park. Um, think of, , You know, when you ask people for recommendations, be specific, say, hey, , I remember helping you with that one project where we had a experiment and sort of get used to a new regulatory environment or something like that.
Be specific about what they include in that recommendation. Be specific [00:55:00] about. The bullet points that you include on your resume on your linkedin profile , it's really about sort of taking a step back and looking at the story You're telling across all of your materials whether it's like I said your linkedin profile your resume and saying like does this tell the story?
That I want it to or if I was coming at this with fresh eyes What is the point? What portrait is this painting of a person? Um, so I think, I think those are two really good ways to think about showcasing your adaptability.
Theresa: All right. Let's make time for one last question. This one here is if someone wants to be a journalist, what are the top three hard skills you need to have
Andrew: Lorraine? You could, uh, we could both.
I don't know. Do you want to give one?
Lorraine: Yeah. Um, written communication. Like I said earlier, I think that's key. Um, also
Andrew: being [00:56:00] inquisitive, I think, like, you know, I, um, when it comes to hard skills, I think that's, I think chat GPT is important. I think photography, I think social media, like, I think all of those are important, but I think for journalists, especially the soft skills, because my motto has always been, like, How we tell stories will always change, but the foundation of, like, what makes those stories important and impactful don't.
Um, so really, I would, I would say it's more important to focus on the soft skills than the hard skills when it comes to being a good journalist.
Theresa: That's amazing. It's so insightful of how important soft skills are. And to make it maybe more specific, Andrew, if you were to hire someone onto your team today, what would be something that you'd be really looking for?
Andrew: Um, I would be looking for someone who's good at data analysis, but also who's really good at writing PIPI. Um, copy because, , we're no longer in the time where people are sitting [00:57:00] down and reading, , gigantic profiles. So, , one of, uh, I think everyone going to school for journalism or for writing wants to do these, like, large magazine length pieces.
And what I always say is, like, I could find anyone to give me 10, 000 words, but if you could give me a really good story in 400 words, that's more valuable to me. Wow.
Theresa: Anything you would want to add, Lorraine, if you were to hire someone today, what would you be looking for?
Lorraine: Um, I, I always emphasize writing as an important skill and, plus one to what Andrew said.
I think what I, and when I have hired before in the past, I also look for people who have a willingness to learn. Right? Because there are a lot of new skills, and, , I guess the style of, , content creation I did involved a lot of, , interacting with, like, influencers, business leaders, so also being able to, , learn in terms of, like, relationship building, and how to sort of, , how to nurture those relationships, I think is really [00:58:00] key, and that's a big part of journalism, too, right?
You want the other person to feel comfortable, to get the insights from them, to get their stories, so I think, , being a people person is also, , a really valuable one. Thank you.
Theresa: Such beautiful advice to leave our listeners with. And there are so many more questions and I'm going to be in the Slack channel responding to all the ones that we weren't able to get to here today.
Um, but before we leave, I want to ask both of you where listeners can find out more about you. Lorraine, , where can we order your book and where we can be learn more about you? Where can we follow you?
Lorraine: Okay, I have a few links. , so the first one, obviously you can find me on LinkedIn. If you just search Lorraine K Lee, you should find me there.
Um, my book, yes, Unforgettable Presence, lorraineklee.com.Book. You can pre order there and also get some special goodies and bonuses if you submit your pre order receipt at the bottom of that page. Um, I'm able to
Theresa: pre order this book. I can, I'm serious. I cannot wait for it to come out. [00:59:00] It's a must read.
Lorraine: Yeah, I've interviewed experts like Andrew in the book. So definitely if you want more insights like these, , there's lots more in the book. I interviewed three dozen business leaders and then, , what was the other one? I was gonna say my, my newsletter, um, lorraineklee.com/subscribe, which is also on my, my name tag here.
And then my 18 linkedin learning courses. So lorraineklee. com slash linkedin learning. You can find all of them on various career leadership and management topics.
Theresa: Amazing. so much. Andrew, where can our listeners follow you, connect with you, learn more about the work you do?
Andrew: Um, so LinkedIn. , so I think it's like linkedin.
com slash I N slash Andrew MC men. There it is on the bottom of your screen. You can also follow my newsletter, linkedin. com slash get hired.
Theresa: Amazing. I love this. Thank you both so much for being here today. This was such a fantastic conversation. So much valuable advice for our audience. So a huge thank you to both of you.
Thank you for having [01:00:00] us.
And that's a wrap on today's session on mastering in demand skills for 2025. This was amazing. We've uncovered invaluable insights about emerging roles, the critical balance between soft and technical skills, and how to harness trends like AI and executive presence to stay competitive. A huge thank you again to Andrew Seaman and Lorraine Kay Lee for sharing their expertise and actionable advice.
Before you leave, make sure that you keep the momentum going. First, reflect on today's insights. Take a moment to write down the strategies and ideas that resonated most with you today in your 12 Days of Career Goals guidebook. Second, commit to action. Identify one specific action step that you are gonna take to apply what you learned today.
Whether it's exploring a new skill, targeting a promising industry, or enhancing your personal brand. Write it down. In your 12 Days of Career Goals guidebook, [01:01:00] that way you will actually make it happen. And third, continue the conversation. Join our Slack channel to connect with others who are on the same journey.
The link is in your emails, and I really don't want you to miss out on this amazing opportunity to connect with others. Remember that it all comes down to career clarity. Once you're clear in your career and what your ideal next career steps are, everything follows. Once you know where you want to go, you can implement all the lessons that you learned here today to then reach the goals you are looking to reach for yourself.
And by understanding which skills and roles to pursue, You're going to be building the roadmap for a fulfilling and successful career. We'll see you tomorrow for another empowering session of the 12 Days of Career Goals. Thank you for joining us today and we'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker 2: And that's a wrap for today's episode of Career Clarity Unlocked. If you're feeling stuck in that what's next spiral and are ready to [01:02:00] finally break free, Let's chat. You can book your free Career Clarity Call, where we'll uncover what's really important to you, tackle any obstacles holding you back, and map out your best next step.
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