Day 10 kendall and Shab (copy podcast finished)
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Speaker: [00:00:00] If you've ever found yourself spiraling down a late night rabbit hole of what am I meant to do and why haven't I found it yet? And let's be honest, who hasn't? Then you're in the right place. I'm Teresa White, career clarity expert and five time certified career coach, and I'm here to help you navigate the question of how to find a career that truly lights you up.
On Career Clarity Unlocked, We're all about those light bulb moments. I'm talking to people who are still trying to figure out what they're meant to do, coaching them live to reach that magical, yes, this is it moment. And we'll also hear from those who've already found their dream careers and figure out exactly how they did it.
Whether you're looking for inspiration or actionable advice on finding a career you love, I've got you covered. Time to unlock some career clarity. Let's dive in.
Transcribed
Theresa: Welcome back to the 12 days of career goals. Today, we're diving into a topic. [00:01:00] Every ambitious professional needs to master how to take control of your career in the corporate world. We'll uncover what it really takes to navigate corporate politics, conquer workplace challenges, and breakthrough to senior leadership roles.
If you've ever felt stuck, unsure how to make your voice heard or ready to stop playing small and start playing smart, this session is for you. Stick around as we learn how to embrace the corporate game and win it on your terms. Get ready to take actual steps toward building the career you love. And I couldn't be more excited for the experts joining me today.
Kendall Berg and Shabnam Golmohammadi. As the founder of that career coach, Kendall Berg helps their clients and followers understand how to find progression. Recognition and support in their careers. She helps her clients learn to play the career game and navigate corporate politics for their ultimate success.
She also regularly supports her more than 500 K [00:02:00] followers across Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Shabnam Gomohamadi is a Silicon Valley leadership coach, championing a new reign for women in tech. This connection at the core of her coaching philosophy, she founded My Synchronicity. To create a safe container for women to conquer the corporate BS screen.
Welcome Kendall. Welcome Shab. To the 12 days of career goals. So excited to be here.
Thank you both for spending this hour with us here today. And I want to kick it off with you Ishaab and hear about your own story. And I'm hoping that you could share a moment with us that was earlier in your career.
Where you realized the rules of the corporate game weren't what they seemed. How did that realization shape your approach to leadership and success?
Shab: Yeah, so I was actually really lucky to have a mom who was an engineering leader. So she had been playing this [00:03:00] corporate game for a long time since the 80s, right?
And so she was constantly telling me this. Before I even started working and it wasn't to scare me, but it really was to prepare me for what was to come. Um, despite that, she always said, you can handle it. You're smart, you're capable, and you have everything it takes to be successful. So I had a lot of that motivation and confidence to be able to take it on.
That being said, what I learned very early on is a couple of things. You need to be an advocate for your own work, and you can't assume anyone is going to do that. And you have to be able to find a sponsor, right? So someone more senior than you in the company, not necessarily just a mentor, but a sponsor who can vouch for you behind closed doors.
So advocacy is so important. Something else I learned is being a leader is so much more important. Uh, relationships are [00:04:00] so much more important in leadership than you would think, and so you have to get to know as many people as possible and start building that bench of allies, even when you're very junior in your career, because those leaders and those folks are really going to support you.
Um, Kendall, I'm really curious to hear what you also have to think around this topic.
Kendall: Yeah, Shab, I definitely second everything that you are saying. I always tell clients that building relationships is more important than any of the quote unquote work that you'll do in your job. Um, it's interesting because just before this, I was on a call with a client about cross calibrations.
And for those of you guys who aren't familiar, Most conversations about promotions, progression, year end reviews, they happen in a room that you're not in, and you're being discussed by different leaders across the organization, not just your boss. So I think Shab to just build on that last point you made, it's not just about having your boss know what you're doing and like you, but it is about that sponsor that you mentioned [00:05:00] and having advocates more broadly throughout the company who are willing to say.
Shab's amazing. She should be promoted. Teresa's great. She deserves credit for this great project she did because if you only have one voice in that room, it can be very quiet. And we want to build that broader network that's going to help advocate for you over time.
Theresa: I love both points that you brought in and how important advocacy is.
And I think it's so fascinating Shab that you grew up with a mom who could give you the basics of that information because not a lot of us get it. My parents certainly, they are not in corporate, so they never were able to tell me any of this. So it gives you probably a head start in having an idea of what is important and what not in corporate.
And Kendall, I know you talk a lot about learning to play the career game. Are there any misunderstood rules about corporate politics that people get wrong? And how can they overturn that and turn that into their advantage?
Kendall: Ooh, so there's two good [00:06:00] ones that I think come to mind for me for this. So the first is, I think it's a popular misconception that your boss knows what you're doing.
Um, I think a good boss. Generally knows what you're doing, but probably doesn't know the specifics or the effort or the capacity required for a lot of tasks. And so I would say the first kind of misunderstood part of the game is like, ah, it's a meritocracy. I'm going to do really good work. My boss is going to know about it.
Their boss is going to know about it and I'm going to get promoted. And so I think the reality of that is that instead you really do have to advocate for yourself, building on our last point, you have to be willing to go to your boss and say, Hey, here's the things I've delivered. Here's the impact they have for the company.
Here's why they're important. And I think that that's a big missing piece, especially for junior people, as we don't realize how much. of knowledge there is across the enterprise, but even in our own leadership of what we're doing and why it's valuable. And I think the second big misconception that I see is people think getting promoted is doing your current [00:07:00] job really well, but the reality of your career is getting promoted is proving to the organization that you are more valuable and you're going to get them more.
In a more senior position with more money. So a lot of the time when I'm coaching clients through, how do we progress our careers? How do we get promoted? It's a lot about selling to your boss and your leadership team, like, Hey, as a manager, senior manager, director. Here's what I'm going to bring to the organization.
Here's the value that I'm going to add in that role while displaying the skills required for that role in your current position. So I think that those two pieces of, it's not just a meritocracy, it's about educating people on what's going on. And then that your promotion needs to add value to the company.
It can't just be. I'm great at what I'm doing. Cause for that, they could keep paying you what they're paying you now. Um, if you can master those two pieces, really, I feel like the game starts to make a lot more sense, but shop, I'd love to hear from you as well. You know, if there's [00:08:00] anything that I missed or if there's things you'd love to add to that, cause I know that this is also a space where you're very clearly the expert as well.
Shab: Yeah, no, I think you hit the nail on the head, Kendall. It isn't a meritocracy and knowing that kind of feels demoralizing at times, but it also, you know, so you're like, what's the point, but there is a way to play the game. And that's what we're talking about today, right? It's a game and all games have rules.
And this is one of the unspoken rules that it's not just a based on what you did. It's based on who, you know, and it's based on. Your ability to demonstrate that you can add additional value at that next level. It's basically an ROI game. Are they going to get an additional return on their investment in you by paying you more, by giving you that more senior title?
That is so huge. What
Theresa: you both just said, because when we go back to the myth of
, if I do my job really well, but all you're proving in that moment is, Oh, we should keep her in this role because she is [00:09:00] Great in this role, like, or he or she is great in this role, like, we're definitely not going to promote her or him. Um, but proving that you'll deliver even more value in that next level.
And Jav, I know that you are really tempting women stepping into senior leadership roles, especially in male dominated industries. Are there any inner shifts or mindset changes that women should, or you recommend for them to embrace when they transition into leadership roles, especially in environments where they face resistance?
Shab: Yeah, I think a couple, right? So one is don't think that everyone is out to get you. And I only say that because the narrative right now out in the world is that I mean, we've been talking about it. It's not fair. Women have it harder. There's so much around the, , gender bias, sexism. Okay. That all exists.
But if you're constantly thinking about that, it's going to be a big part of how you do your job. And you're going to [00:10:00] be on defense mode the whole time. It makes it very hard to connect with others. It makes it very hard to build that trust because trust is really the most important thing that we can develop.
And it's one of the most important things. And I'll talk about this later, but the currency that we all kind of trade within organizations. And so what I really want women to focus on is who has my back. And who will support me as a leader. And you want to build up that bench of allies and thought partners who will elevate the work and increase your influence versus thinking about how unfair everything is, even if that is the truth.
And if you can't find anyone, right, then you probably are in the wrong environment. And a lot of the work I do with clients is again, like, how do we find the right places that value us and. How do we actually advance and grow in an environment that actually values and wants to promote us versus trying to fit ourselves in a place that really doesn't want us at the end of the day?[00:11:00]
Theresa: What's your recommendation, Shab, for women who are in that bro culture where decisions are made on the golf course and they go all drink a beer after work and it's that really male dominant environment. Do you encourage women to be a part of that or differentiate themselves in a different way?
Shab: So it really depends on who you are. I mean, some women love to golf and drink beers and be a bro. I mean, like, not all women are the same, right? So if you want to do that, I completely encourage that. But if that's not you, then, um, We have to find a way that's a little bit more authentic to make those connections and build those relationships, right?
Um, if you want to learn how to play golf, do that. But if you don't, there are other avenues that exist. And so I really encourage the women to really understand the culture they're in. Um, if you don't want to drink with the bros, that's cool. But we want to find those opportunities to build those relationships.
[00:12:00] And it becomes a little bit harder over zoom, um, especially in fully remote environments.
Kendall: Absolutely. Kendall, do you see that too? I do. And I, I love job that you almost started this with, uh, kind of the unpopular thought, which is like, yeah, all of these things may work against you, but you can't hyperfixate on it.
Because. In the end, there are things that are in our control and there are things that are not in our control and we can't control how anybody else feels about us, but we can control how we interact with them, how we stay authentic to ourselves, how we show up for ourselves. Right. And I give unpopular advice to my clients all the time.
I'm like, Oh, you don't like that coworker. I want you to spend more time with them. Because it's really easy to spend very little time with somebody and hate them from afar. It's really simple for them to do to you as well. It's harder for us to sit in a one on one with somebody and say, [00:13:00] Hey, like I felt some friction with you lately.
I'd love to understand your expectations of me on this project so that I can make sure we're working together as efficiently as possible. Let's have this conversation. Now, obviously there are exceptions to that. We're not talking heinous workplace acts. Right. Which like, that's what HR is for, but for that every day, like, man, maybe I just don't connect with this guy or this guy is the bro who goes golfing.
And I'm more of the sit at home with a cup of tea and knit kind of gal. It's okay to be different and still forge connection, um, in a way that's authentic to you. And so I, I love shop that we're talking about how women in leadership. You can be yourself. You can still be successful, even in an environment that maybe wasn't built for you, but in a way that you feel empowered to deliver great work, great results, manage your team, lead your strategy.
Um, that's ultimately what I think it comes down to is if you show up as you and you make intentional moves, those things can't hold you back for very long. I
Theresa: [00:14:00] love that from both of you. One big piece is being authentic, and I truly believe that is what gets us to success in our career. We can only get so far being inauthentic.
So being who we are and finding the environment and the other piece I love that both of you touched on, and I agree it's not, it's unpopular advice to not be so focused on all the negative stereotypes and biases, but, um, I think the way to overcome those biases is not by being negative and repeating them and you're really stuck in that cycle, but by showing off, okay, I can, yes, this exists, but I focus on what is in my control, as both of you had said so perfectly.
Shab: It's a way more empowering perspective. Just one more thing, right? It's so disempowering to feel like you're a victim than it is to feel like you have some agency and control. And so I think, you know, everything that we said really [00:15:00] leads the client or the individual to feel that responsibility.
Theresa: I get 100 percent with you.
It's about being in control. Yes. 100%. And that doesn't mean we have to ignore or say like, Oh, this isn't sure this doesn't exist biases, but yes, it exists, but I'm going to take control of what I can. And talking about taking control, Kendall, many mid level professionals feel stuck because they don't know how to position themselves for senior leadership.
Can you walk us through any practical frameworks or processes for securing that first executive role?
Kendall: Yeah, so I often talk about, I think the jump from senior manager to director, in my opinion, is one of the most challenging that happens in corporate, because as an individual contributor, your most important skill is really your technical skill.
Right. Can you do your job effectively? Well, on time with organization, et cetera, middle management, we introduce managing and [00:16:00] delegation, but still really within the realm of delivering a technical skill or a technical deliverable, and then all of a sudden at the director level, most companies are like, great, you run a strategy, you run a team, you're responsible for a vision and displaying that skillset as a senior manager is what's really challenging.
It's not being capable of it. A lot of us believe we're capable of doing director and above executive level work, but how do you show it? And I think to do that, you really have to build on what Shab said. You have to take agency and you have to be willing to do work. Nobody's asking you to do. So one of the things I encourage most of my clients, if they're looking to make a jump into an executive leadership is nobody's going to ask you, what's the strategy for your team and your two year road map?
And how would you organize your team in order to support that vision? Nobody's going to come to you and outright ask that. Maybe a really good boss might, but like, generally, it's not going to happen that way. Take that agency, say, this is my sphere, no matter how small you can [00:17:00] manage one person for all.
I care. You can manage no people for all. I care you yourself. And I here's my strategy. Here's the value. It adds to the company. Here's how it connects to the company's goals and objectives. Here's the resources required to deliver that strategy in the timeline that that takes. Those are the skills executives are looking for when they're looking to put people into an executive level position.
They're not looking for somebody who has taken one more certification in AWS, though. I love it. Good for you. It's not about somebody delivering 52 bulleted items in their year end review. It's those people who take initiative, show their strategy. They have a clear direction. And I would add on to this that you have to have strong leadership skills.
Not management. Management will get you stuck in middle management forever. But how are you leading a team forward? How are you developing? How are you coaching? One of the things I had a great mentor tell me once is that he's constantly in the job of replacing himself. And if he's not replacing himself fast enough, he's not leading his team well [00:18:00] enough.
And I really carry that in my career. That Everybody who works for me should be able to do my job. That's my goal is to get everyone who works for me at my level of capability so that I can go do the next thing. And when you are creating that next generation of great leaders, executives want you on their team because that's what they need.
They need more leaders under them to do all the stuff they've got to do that they don't have time to do. And they need somebody who's great at that coaching skill. So those would be the two tactical pieces I would say is. Find opportunities to build a strategy, drive it forward, create the roadmap, do the work nobody's asking you to do.
And then display those leadership skills, whether that's coaching somebody through a promotion or building up, um, different hierarchies within your team or giving them the autonomy to run large scale projects, or even firing somebody, which I think is a leadership skill that none of us like to talk about.
It's not fun, but somebody's got to do it. I think displaying those 2 pieces are really the biggest thing that's going to help you display. You're ready for executive leadership, and you're not just [00:19:00] stuck in that middle management mindset.
Theresa: That's huge, Kendall. And I want to bring in here real quick a question that we got yesterday in our Q& A and that really plays into it.
And the question was, how do you build skills in and showcase your strategic vision?
Kendall: I think the word strategy has become this like nebulous. Vague concept. And people are like, am I a strategic? I don't know. And then we get feedback from one boss. Who's like, you're not very strategic. And we have no idea what that means, but we like make it part of our personality.
Like I'm not a strategic person. Thank you. The reality is that the only thing you need to do to have a strategy Is think ahead at how you want to be operating and work your way back. So if you think of your team or your company, all the CEO is doing is going, okay, three years, where do I want our company to be revenue wise, operations wise, uh, how do I want us to be positioned in the market?
What do I want a brand to look like? Great. [00:20:00] Where are we today? And how do we close that gap? That's really ultimately what a strategy is. So if you're looking to build skills and show your strategic vision, Stop thinking short term, start thinking, how does this fit into the company's goals? How does this fit into where I want to be in three years?
How do these things impact the team next year? Start thinking longer term, start having those conversations with your boss, right? Um, my team's goal right now at work is. Automation and efficiency has been for 2 years. I hope that anybody on my team, if you ask them what our goals are, would say autonomy and efficiency.
And there are a million ways we go after that goal, but it is a long term vision. And we're consistently adding value in that space. And there's alignment with leadership. So stop thinking short term, create a long term vision, communicate it with your boss. And then if you're looking to do something more tactical, There are always strategy certifications you can take.
I'm sure there's LinkedIn learnings on it. There's other places you can go to be trained in it. But what I have found personally, when it comes to strategy is [00:21:00] sometimes it's just carving out the time to sit down and do it instead of doing the tactical every day, carve a few hours, lock yourself in a room.
Where do we want to be? Great. Work our way back to today. Great. What's going to be the difference?
Shab: Yeah, well, actually worked in corporate strategy. I was a leader on our strategy and planning team at Uber Eats, and everybody wanted to work in strategy.
Like, everybody was like, I don't wanna be so tactical. I want to do the strategic work. Well, every role is strategic if you make it strategic. And so what I loved about the answer you gave to The question that, uh, Teresa originally asked is you need to think about what are the problems that need to be solved and go out and solve them.
Right? And so that's really having that entrepreneurial mindset, not necessarily entrepreneurial because you're focused internally, but companies that really value entrepreneurship are the ones that are the most strategic. Right? And so for you to take on that intrapreneurial, A role within the company to be able to go seek the [00:22:00] problems worth solving.
It doesn't just come from waiting for your boss to hand it to you. It actually comes from going and meeting with people, connecting it with those folks and then connecting the dots. Oh, I see that this team is having this issue. I also see that this is a core. Uh, you know, gap in our product, and I know that our team is capable of solving it and fitting in here, but I'm going to drive this right.
And so if you can kind of create this almost group, uh, strike team, if you will, and execute on the project, that is going to get you so far ahead. Right? And so I think it's for all of us, especially those who want to be promoted into leadership to say, okay, Where am I going to fit into this and go seek out those problems and go make it happen?
It doesn't just need to be a strategic role. Any role is strategic.
Kendall: I love that and I just want to repeat what you said really quick for like the people in the back Don't wait for your boss to tell you. [00:23:00] This is like the biggest mistake I see in middle management. It's like, well, my boss hasn't asked me to create a strategy or they haven't asked me to fix that problem.
Solve it, get the accolade for it. Advocate for yourself once it's done, but like, don't wait to be told what to do. Executives don't wait for somebody to ask them to do their jobs. They take that ownership.
Theresa: That is huge. And I'm a hundred percent with both of you here is it's that proactive, that long term vision, thinking of not waiting for problems to pop up and someone to tell you, fix this, but to think about, okay, where do we want to be in the future and three years from now?
And what can I do today to take leadership and help the company achieve those goals? And Shab, I want to kick it back off to this conquering the corporate BS. I heard you talking about this before, and I know you help them and conquer the corporate BS. What are some example of subtle challenges [00:24:00] or even outright biases women face in the corporate world, which we've already touched on slightly.
Um, but how do you coach them to overcome these obstacles? And the huge thing I want to focus on is without burning out.
Shab: Yeah. So, you know, every company is going to have its challenges. There's no perfect workplace. The key thing that I see within my own clients is they're being told, and we've touched on it.
They're not strategic enough, or they don't have some sort of exec presence. Right. And so for them, they're like, well, I don't really know how to action on this. Uh, it feels like it's a cop out and sometimes it is. You know, sometimes it is an excuse. They're just not going to promote you, which is a whole, you know, I'll get to that, but for those that are like, okay, well, I'm going to be honest.
And probably, yes, there are some gaps in my skillset. We kind of lean into developing what that is. And really, my coaching is totally focused on developing that [00:25:00] confidence from within. And so, , for some, it's that they're not really communicating that expertise correctly. And so we really think about, well, how do you show up in meetings?
How are you communicating and managing up, which is such an important skill? I think it's, One of the most important things we have to learn in our careers. How do you manage up to leadership? And then for those others, it's, there is a lack of self trust. Okay. So maybe they don't feel like they have that logic or the competency there.
Maybe they aren't feeling like they can be totally authentic, or maybe there's this lack of, Hey, I don't necessarily connect to the company. So whatever it is, it's all BS. We try and go in and really tailor it to their unique situation. And we take it one step at a time. I think that's the most important thing when it comes to not burning out.
You know, when you look at everything, you might get overwhelmed, break it up into bite sized [00:26:00] pieces, then we can really say, okay, what are we going to focus on and make the priority? And prioritization is another important skill that we all have to develop, especially if we're in leadership and we don't want to burn out because not everything can be a priority.
But so much of us are trying to juggle everything we have going on in our lives, and we simply cannot do it. It simply isn't, there isn't enough time. So how do we prioritize in order to be effective?
Kendall: I think, you know, Shabby, you mentioned that sometimes bosses just don't know what to tell you. And I think we could have a whole separate 12 days of career goals on just that topic alone of like how managers need to learn to give feedback more effectively.
That's a whole aside, but I love what you said about. Like making it bite size of like, what are the chunks we can do? And something that I work with a lot is like, what is the theme in the feedback that we need to improve? And what skill do we need to build to solve that theme? Because a lot of the time [00:27:00] managers give 52 things of like nitpicky, like, Oh, well you, this one spreadsheet had an error and you didn't schedule this meeting on time, but they give nitpick advice.
And you're like, listen, I'm trying to become an executive. These are not, this is not helpful. So what's the theme? How do we. Take it as a learning opportunity to go develop that skill and go implement it. But then to your point, how do we do it in a way that doesn't become do it all or do nothing because it's not sustainable.
So, if we're going to carve out time for self development. Then let's carve out time. Let's block it on our calendars. Let's make it a priority and then use the rest of the time to deliver the work that is going to keep us employed while we're on this route, but then also give us the space to show some of those strategic skills to show up in meetings the way that we want to be so we can continue to progress that career.
Theresa: Those are great strategies and advice. And I want to dive into this a little deeper with a, um, building on what we talked before. Now, if we're talking about that jump from middle management [00:28:00] into an executive role, which Kendall, you had said is one of the hardest, um, promotions you're probably going to go through in your career.
How do we not burn out doing that? Because as a middle manager, there's a lot of room to play. Usually, you have your workload, you have employees, you have responsibilities, and now we're adding on. Okay, now you need to do everything that positions you for that executive role. How do you handle that?
Kendall: Shab, do you want to take it? Do you want me to take it? Who wants to take it?
Shab: Oh, Kendall, I want to hear from you, for sure.
Kendall: Um, Then I can take it. Yeah, I'm like, I want to hear. I'm like, is this my question? Is this Shab's question? I'm excited. I want to jump in. Um, I think when we're trying to do so much, we need to have good tactical systems in place and we need, Shab touched on it earlier, we need good prioritization, like we can't do all of the things, , and building that two way communication with your leadership, I think is really important during this transition as well of like, [00:29:00] hey, I'm happy to take on this new ask you've come up with.
Is it more important than the 72 other things you have me in the team doing is, is this more valuable? Sometimes it is great. What's that trade off look like, but then also sometimes it's not and how we have two way communication about that. So that we're not spinning our wheels on something that maybe isn't the most effective use of our time.
But I think the 2nd thing, the big transition that happens when we're moving from middle management to executives that has to do with our boundaries is starting to ask for what you need. I think women, especially can really struggle with this. Right where we think we just have to do all the things my boss came to me to ask for this other thing, and I'm just going to take it on because I know the team's overloaded.
So I'm just going to do it and we just pick it up. And the reality is that building respect and authority as a leader also requires being able to evaluate what is and is not feasible and what we need to make things happen. And so something that I often coach to, and that I do a lot of my own career is, Hey, I'd love to pick up this project.
What you're talking about [00:30:00] is. It's really kind of like a quarter of a person's worth of work. Are we planning to add additional resources for this? Is this important enough to deprioritize the scale of work required in order to deliver this ask? Do we need more people? Do we need more systems? And when you start to have those types of conversations with your leadership, I think a lot of people, especially women, but men as well.
We get afraid, like, oh, they're going to think I'm saying no, they're going to think I'm not a team player that I can't do it. And the reality is it actually becomes a, a yes. And conversation. Yes. I'm happy to do that. And I needs more people. Yes. I'm happy to do that. And I need a system. Yes. I'm happy to do that.
And I need to deprioritize something. And those are much more constructive conversations than just saying yes, until we burn out, which many of us are prone to do. Or saying no, which I'm starting to see a lot in younger generations coming into the workplace. It's like, well, no, I don't have time to do that.
Or like, no, that doesn't seem very important. It's also not super constructive. Right? So finding this. This trade off balance [00:31:00] of, Hey, I want to do the strategic things. I think they're more important. I'm trading off this other task and, or I need more people to support that vision and building that type of strategic approach into your work rather than a like.
Yes, I can do everything you asked me to do, and that will allow you to maintain your boundaries more successfully, and it will allow you to display those skills. You want to display more because again, leadership skills are now being displayed strategic alignment is being displayed and shop had touched on, like, prioritization because otherwise we just become the can do it all person and that takes you far in your career to a point and then you just become the dumping ground for all the problems without that ability to continue to elevate yourself.
Mhm.
Shab: 100 percent and you know what prioritization is strategic that is a big part of strategy strategy isn't go do everything right strategy is what are we going to focus on that's going to move the needle [00:32:00] and so if we bring that lens into our own careers We can then say, Oh, okay. I don't think helping Brenda is going to actually get me the visibility I need to make it.
It's a director. You know, I can't constantly running reports, you know, just because my team has the capability to do that. It's going to mean that I'm not able to put my focus into something that actually is going to make an impact in the career and for the business. Right. And so I think you summed it up perfectly, Kendall.
It is a prioritization exercise, and it is all about what makes sense for not only yourself, but for your team, for the business. And then in that vein, you won't be seen as the go to, person that's going to just pick up the trash all the time. You're going to be respected. And that's a big part of getting into leadership.
Do I have that
Theresa: respect? 100 percent respect. That is huge. And it really shows when you just say, yes, yes, yes. [00:33:00] You don't display leadership skills, strategic thinking. You're not asking for respect. But when you come in that way that both of you demonstrated of, yes, but is this really important? Given the strategic vision, your manager, someone's like, oh, wow, she's he or she, they are really thinking ahead.
And that really solidifies more of that respect that you need in the company. And I want to bring in the concept of influence. Kindle influence is often key to corporate success, but it's also a tricky concept to master. What advice do you give professional on recognizing their unique influence and then leveraging it to rise into leadership positions?
Kendall: So I think building influence comes down to building relationships, right? And shop kind of touched on this earlier, but there is. It is very challenging. It is possible, but it's very challenging to get a lot of work done. If you are not [00:34:00] liked, appreciated, respected and have influence. Right. Um, back in the early 2000s, we would have called these like the bulldog employees.
I feel like that's not PC anymore, but the people who like came in who like brute force push projects across the finish line. And the reality is that in the end work is about relationships. And when it comes to mastering influence, whether that's to deliver a project, whether that's to get promoted, whether that's to progress your career, number one ingredient in that is one on one time with people.
And so mistake, I see people make a lot. Especially remote because remote adds its own unique challenges to this is we think, Oh, well, I meet with that person all the time because we're working on this project together, or I talk with that personal, this leader all the time because we're working on this big initiative, but we don't spend any time investing in like a one on one foundation.
And when we [00:35:00] have that one on one foundation, our influence in a group setting is going to be so much stronger. Because if I've talked to the Shab this week about what's going on with her kids and what's going on in her life, and she expressed to me, oh, I'm so frustrated finance is making me crazy this week, but like, we'll get through it.
And then we end up on a group call where finance is asking for a bunch of stuff. And I say, Hey. You know, is there a way that I can step in and support with some of this? I know Shab's had a lot going on. Is that something that you'd like my assistance with? My team could take that if it alleviates some pressure now, not only do I have a one on one relationship, I'm adding value to her and then when something comes up where I'm like, Hey, Shab, I really need your help with this.
She's like, girl, you got it. What do you need? When do you need it? And so when it comes to being remote specifically, this means carving time to have 15 minute virtual conversations with people. I hear the excuse all the time. So I'm going to touch on it really quickly. Oh, but we're all so busy. They don't have time to chat with me.
They're so busy and they are busy, but like, if we were in the office, you would grab coffee with them and not think about it twice. So like [00:36:00] we can carve some time. And we can say, Hey, I just want to connect with you. It's not going to be every week. Let's not go crazy here, but like every other month, every quarter, I just want to have some one on one time chat with you, make sure I'm delivering to your expectations.
So I think mastering influence for progression and for delivery. It comes down to building those strong relationships as one on ones. And the second piece of it is having clear communication about expectations. So something that I do with all of my clients is I have everybody go through a, like, how do I want to show up at work exercise?
And I've done this with thousands of people and nobody's list is the same. Everybody wants to show up at work a slightly different way. But the reality is if we have expectations for ourselves, we expect the same of other people. Right. If I'm highly organized and I'm not going to miss a deadline, I expect that Teresa is not going to miss a deadline either because quid pro quo.
And so a lot of the time. Influence can be about understanding what unspoken expectations other people have for us. So when there's tension or when there's friction, my favorite question is, Hey, I want to understand what expectations you [00:37:00] have for me in this project and this role and how I could best deliver on them.
Every time I've asked that somebody has said something that I'm like, Oh, that was not in my head as one of my expectations. And so when we're building these relationships with intention, we're spending this time. We understand the expectations people have of us. We're able to meet those expectations or exceed them intentionally.
Don't be working yourself to death here and burn it out, but like with intention. And that's going to give us the influence to nudge other departments to do certain things or encourage people to follow a certain vision or get people aligned with our ideas and our projects or help us solve those big problems.
Chad mentioned across the organization that we want to go in and fix for our boss to see. And then when it comes time to promotions, the people who are sitting in that room are like, oh, wow, Kendall, like Yeah, she's such a great communicator. She's such a great project manager. She's so organized. And some of those things they may have seen in your work, but most likely they [00:38:00] saw them in your one on ones and that's what stuck with them.
So really being intentional with your time and focusing on the person that's going to help you really start to build that sphere of influence that you're going to need long term.
Shab: Yeah, something I would just add to this just as a metaphor. It's like, you're making deposits into the relationship bank.
And so when you need to make a withdrawal, eventually, they're going to be there for you. And so you can't just go in, especially if we're just slacking people all day. Hey, I need this. Hey, I need this. Like, that's not building a relationship. And , They're probably not going to respond very quickly, right?
They're just gonna be like, Oh, she's asking me for something again. I don't even know her, you know, I mean, that's happened to me. I've probably been that way too in the past. I'm not going to lie, you know, especially under deadlines and pressure. But if you're able to really connect with everybody and get that face time, you build that rapport.
That's so important. You know, and I think that's 1 of the soft skills that we need to have organizations pushing more. Um, it is a core part of [00:39:00] how effective we are getting things done. It makes things so much more efficient. And so, if you're not making regular deposits into those relationship banks, I think that's a very easy, like, action item to start just doing immediately.
Getting those 15 minute calls on the calendar. Um, and I just think it is such an important investment in your career.
Theresa: Huge, huge. I'm yes, absolutely. And scheduling that time, because as, as you both said, we're busy. 15 minutes aren't just going to pop up somewhere on our calendar. Be like, you have 15 minutes of free time as much as I wish that would happen.
Um, but actually being intentional about it and scheduling that time and making it a priority, because. is.
all: Now,
Theresa: when we're talking about influence and making deposits, The word that comes back to my mind is authenticity. And Shab, one of the toughest aspects of climbing the corporate ladder is, I think, [00:40:00] that balancing of the authenticity with the need to play that game and do all the things we should be doing.
And how do you recommend professionals , stay true to who they are, but also at the same time navigate those corporate dynamics?
Shab: So I love this question because authenticity is such like a hot topic. Everyone online is like, you gotta be authentic. Um, and nobody really tells you what that means.
And so for me, I love this because at the core authenticity is one of the key drivers of developing trust within organizations. And we talked about this all throughout this call, but trust Is the most important currency that we are trading within these companies, right? Even in that interview, you're trying to build trust with the interviewer.
So they give you that offer. It's the same thing. Once you have the job, how can I continue to develop that trust? And there are really three core drivers of it. And authenticity is one of the drivers. And [00:41:00] so when it comes to being authentic, it doesn't mean oversharing or bringing your dirty laundry to work.
It doesn't even mean you have to bring your entire self to work. And I know that's, people are always really like, Yeah, bring your whole self to work. Well, I think it means really living in accordance to your values and aligning what you say and what you do With those values so that your team can get a great sense of who you are.
Your leadership can get a great sense of who you are and that you are able to feel like you can bring your unique perspective and lived experience to whatever problem you need to solve. And so. I think one of the most important things is actually having that perspective and developing it. And sometimes we don't feel confident in it.
And that's why we don't share, or we don't feel like we can bring that to the table. And so for me, when we say we want more authenticity, that's on us. That's our personal responsibility, but it's also [00:42:00] on the companies. And companies need to develop psychological safety and create that so that teams and leaders and individuals can actually innovate and bring those ideas and unique perspectives to the table.
There's a really interesting study around this. Even though we want more diverse teams at companies, if a diverse team isn't able to be Authentic, there is a lack of empathy. Uh, they perform worse than a homogenous team. I think that's really interesting. Um, and that again comes down to this whole thing of can I be myself and actually share what I want to share at work?
If that's not in place, then this whole authenticity conversation is a moot point for companies. Um, so they really need to put their money where their mouth is and actually develop. Safe organizations where innovation is actually valued and unique perspectives are actually valued.
Kendall: [00:43:00] Totally agree. I think there's two things I would touch on with that job that, because I love where you're going with this.
I think being authentic at work does not always mean rude either, right? When we talk about creating psychological safety for you to voice your opinion. I think people get confused with tone versus what they're saying. Right. And if we create a space where people can disagree in a constructive way, where they can offer their opinions in a constructive way, where they can state their risks and their concerns.
It doesn't mean you always get your way and it doesn't mean you can be rude about disagreeing with somebody. But in those spaces where there has been a good culture bit, you should be able to bring how you feel about a situation. Doesn't mean you always get your way, which is where I think people get lost or like, but I shared my opinion.
So now we're going with my idea and people are like, no, but thank you for contributing. And so I do think there needs to be a balance here, but I totally agree with you. It is on the company and on the leadership itself to create an environment where people can bring contrary [00:44:00] views to the table. And I think the second thing that I would add is I think playing the game gets a bad rep because people think of that, like sleazy car salesman.
They worked with one time who took credit for everybody's work and didn't do anything. Like normally his name is Steve in my head. I'm sure there are very nice Steve's out in the world. If you're listening to this and your name is Steve, I'm sure you're fabulous and it's not about you. Bye. There's always that one coworker that we've had who stole credit, who didn't do anything, who spent all their time schmoozing and none of their time delivering.
And I don't think that's what any of us are advocating for on this call. What I would say is you can be authentic to what is important to you. Like you mentioned Shab, to what your values are, to how you want to show up. And still put nuance on how you deliver things. Still develop new skills that have to do with your communication or your executive presence.
That doesn't mean you're being fake. I don't want you to go into a room with somebody every week who you absolutely detest and be like, how are things going in your team today? I'd love to help with that. Like we don't have to put ourselves in uncomfortable [00:45:00] positions every single day, but if you're going to choose not to play the game, do it on purpose.
Not because you don't understand what the rules and the bounds are. And if you are going to play the game, do it in a way that stays true to who you are and what's important to you. And then we don't have this inauthenticity issue because people try to fit themselves into like, Oh, my boss likes to do it this way.
So I'll try to do it that way. And that's when we start to. Degrade our own unique skill set, our own special sauce in order to fit into the broader group. And I think that's where we lose people, but I think shop the points that you made are so valid. There is responsibility on the company to create an environment.
That's okay with showing up authentically. And then it's on us to do that in a way that's still Collaborative and effective so that we have that two way communication and it doesn't become like a brick wall that we keep hitting when we try to share those things.
Theresa: I love that both of you brought in psychological safety. It's something that I believe so strongly in [00:46:00] how important that is in organizations and also it directly impacts the bottom line. If people feel safe. To share their opinion, to share their view, to make suggestions, come up, share their ideas.
The company is going to be better. And as Kendall said, not everything you're going to say is going to be a yes, yes, yes. But the foundation it sets is such a strong foundation for, for overall, for the entire organizational success.
Shab: Yeah, and I think a disagree and commit culture is so powerful and it allows people to show up then that way, because when you can feel safe to share your perspective on a problem, you don't think you're going to be penalized for it.
It goes so much farther than an organization where you're constantly worried that your incorrect point of view is going to be a detriment to your career. Yeah, absolutely.
Theresa: Now we're almost in [00:47:00] 2025, 20 days away, which is actually super crazy. Um, and I want to, before we go into Q and a, and I already see great questions coming through here, but everyone in the audience, please share your questions in the chat.
We're going to have time for Q and a and try to get to as many of those questions as we can. Um, but before we go into Q and a, if someone in 2025 wants to step into senior leadership. Kendall, what is the single most important thing they should focus on today to set themselves up for success?
Kendall: I would say communicating what they want.
Don't expect your boss to read your mind and know that you think you're ready for a director level role or a senior director role or a VP role. They don't read your mind or no candidly. And so I would say, if you're going into the new year and you're like 2025 is my year. I'm going to get that next level, going to get that promotion, those conversations start now, when we're setting goals, how do my goals [00:48:00] align with this expectation I have of your end, Hey, boss, I'm expecting to get promoted at your end.
Is that feasible? What gaps do you see between my performance today and me performing at the next level that I can work over the next 12 months to close that gap? If we don't have those conversations early. One, we end up disappointed because we get to your end and unless a miracle happened, we're probably not getting promoted and it's a bummer, but two, I feel a lot of people are afraid to have these conversations because what if their boss gives them an answer they don't like, like, Hey, you're not getting promoted in 2025, or, Hey, there are huge gaps between your performance and where we need to see you at the next level.
But the reality is, as an individual, you cannot make educated decisions about your career. If you don't have all the information. So have the conversation in January. If there's a possibility, now we're aligned. We have a strategy. We know what goals to set. We go back to what we talked about earlier.
Strategic vision for our team. We're creating those goals. We've got alignment with our boss. We're closing gaps. We're on track for end of year. And if our boss comes back and says, [00:49:00] Hey, no, that's not going to happen. Then we self assess and say, okay, am I comfortable with waiting longer? We still want to establish those goals.
That vision start tracking towards it, or do I need to start looking internally in another team or externally at a different company in order to hit my timeline objectives? So what I would say is the number one thing, if you're going into the new year and you're like, I'm ready, executive leadership here, I come start to have those conversations, start to prepare yourself, gather as much information as you can about what needs to be done before you're expecting it to happen.
Otherwise, you're just going to hit that roadblock and you're going to be like, but I don't understand. I did all the things Kendall and Shab said to do on 12 days of career goals, and I'm not magically promoted. So make sure that you're, you're having that autonomy and that ownership as well. I'm curious Schaub, what you would add to that as we go into the new year.
Shab: I mean, I love the answer you provided. Having a conversation, even if it's uncomfortable is so important because as you said, we can't make any [00:50:00] decisions or move forward unless we have the information or data. And even if the data says no, then you have information to make a decision on, right? And so you don't want to be left at the end of the year thinking I did everything, I hit all the core competencies and I'm still getting the same feedback, right?
Have conversations. Not only at the beginning of the year, but throughout the year, be the one who is advocating yourself for the entirety of the year, because if you're not constantly bringing it up, then it might just fall in the cracks. And that's the worst thing, right? You're going to leave disappointed.
Um, the other thing I would add is to set a goals and have your own scorecard that you're regularly checking in on. So if you can have like a set of OKRs, I love those objectives and key results that you are able to measure your performance against, which is rooted in data. That's going to make it a lot more difficult to argue against your [00:51:00] case if you know exactly where you stand.
And so build up that case throughout the year. Build up all of the data and package it up so that it's hard to argue. You know, make it so easy for your manager or whoever to be able to vouch for you. Make it like you're handing it to them on a platter. Right. And so that just comes with regular communication that comes with how we present the information at the end of the day.
Theresa: And this is so relevant to everyone that you want to communicate and then deliver it on a silver platter to them. You wanted to make it easy. As you said, this is brilliant. And I want to move into Q& A here, um, and I'm really curious, we have one great question here. What advice would you give to address ageism in the workplace, especially in tech where the average demographic is younger?
Shab: Yeah, well, I saw this with my parents, um, [00:52:00] as they, they were engineers, both of them. And so as they got a little bit older, uh, there was a lot of ageism and, uh, eventually they decided it wasn't worth it. And so they left. How would you deal with it? I think it again comes back to what Kendall and I have been talking about.
How do you build relationships with folks such that, you know, you don't have to like speak the same lingo, but it's like, how well do you know someone? How, Well respected. Are you right? Um, and so for me, the advice I would give here is always go back to, okay, how can I further connect with this person or with this group?
Um, and again, if you don't feel valued at the company, and if you feel like, Hey, this isn't actually a place where I'm able to build that connection, um, it's a good piece of data. Then you could make a decision. Do I want to be here? Can I go somewhere where I feel a little bit more valued? Um, And so I think, again, taking that agency and responsibility and not feeling [00:53:00] like you're a victim of a circumstance, but really saying, okay, I'm an owner in my career and this is no longer serving me.
What am I going to do here about it?
Kendall: Yeah, I think to add to that, I love that you brought up not being a victim Shab, because I think it's very easy, especially if you're hearing it explicitly in the workplace to like, very quickly be demoralized, but see it as if I look through that, what type of feedback am I actually getting?
Is it about reluctance to learn new ideas? Is it about. Learning new technologies is about communicating more effectively and getting to the root of what we need to learn so that we can continue to grow and develop because no matter where you work, there's always going to be those opportunities for you to continue to become a better version of yourself.
And so I think honing in on those where you can is helpful. I think when it comes to ageism, I mean, I face this all the time in my career in the reverse where I was. The young girl on the leadership team with a bunch of older gentlemen, and I have a horror stories that go with that, that I won't take up time on this to [00:54:00] share, but they're on the podcast and on my Instagram, if you're ever interested, but I think a lot of the time, what it came down to was like, could I communicate the way that needed to be communicated?
Could I learn the skills? The people were questioning. I was capable of and deliver on them in an effective way. And was I open to seeing past people who are poor communicators, giving bad feedback to what actually needed to be done in order for myself to continue to move forward. And so I would encourage you there.
You're not going to fix the root problem. Unfortunately, I wish we could. I wish I had bippity boppity No more issues in the workplace of toxic anything, but since we're not going to do that, I agree with Shab, take that agency, figure out what it is you need to learn or what you can learn, and then assess, is this the right environment for me or is there a better environment for me in order to continue to feel like you're growing.
And so that you don't inadvertently get yourself stuck in a bad situation.
Theresa: Yes, absolutely. A hundred percent agree, taking control, really [00:55:00] being in charge. And what I always recommend to Specifically, career changes that I work with who are facing ageism is also your personal branding. What is it that you're known for?
Is it right when Kendall walks into the room? Is it like, Oh, it's the young girl? Or are we seeing someone who's like, Oh, she's the one who turns visions into reality? And if this is, if you have that strong brand and you're known for something, people are much more likely to see past your age or past any biases or stereotypes they have, um, and they see the value that you bring.
Kendall: For the record, early on in my career, I was that blonde girl who was pretty smart. Like not even joking. That was like a legitimate executive statement about my performance. And then I delivered on this great project. And then I never heard that phrase again. It was like, amazing. It was gone in the ether.
And so I do think taking that ownership for your personal brand, what are you good at, how do you deliver on it? Um, and this is something I talk about a lot with my clients. It's like, you [00:56:00] have a lot of control over what your personal brand is. We think we don't, we think it's like high school and somebody started a rumor in some back hallway somewhere and the rest was history, but if you know what you're good at and you talk about what you're good at, and then you deliver on that, you have a lot of control over how you're perceived.
And if you take that control and you take that agency, you can change the narrative over time. It's not an overnight thing. This is an overtime thing, but I love that you're talking on that Teresa as well, because it is, If we can get out of our own way, we can create a new narrative with enough time in the right environment.
Um, and then if the environment's not right, then we reassess it and run like we stole something if we have to.
Theresa: Absolutely. And the next question here that we got is going back to the topic of influence. What are some ways to build influence in a corporate setting, especially for professionals who prefer a more quieter, more introverted or more reserved approach?
Kendall: So I'm [00:57:00] introverted, contrary to popular opinion, um, and something that I encourage people to do a lot of the time, if you are introverted or if you're neurodivergent in any way, in which case you operate slightly differently than like a neurotypical way is one schedule your networking sessions when your peak energy is up.
Right. It's like my peak energy is the morning. You don't want to be having a chat with me at four o'clock in the afternoon. Not my best self. So like I schedule my networking sessions in the morning because that's when I'm going to show up the most refreshed, the most excited with the most energy in a good way.
Um, I think also, again, you can do this in a way that's authentic to you. If you're not comfortable talking to a bunch of people. Don't go to the happy hour with 60 people have one on ones once a week with somebody of influence and stagger those calls week after week so that you can show up and do it in a way that feels comfortable to you, that you can assess that relationship more effectively.
So what I would say is like, learn yourself and then [00:58:00] tailor your approach to influence and network team to what's going to work to you. Now you are going to have to do it. There there's no world, unfortunately, where you never talk to a single person and end up being. Hockey stick growth in your career.
It's just not feasible in the way that our corporate environment works today, but stagger your one on ones pick a one on one rather than a group event. Only attend a happy hour. If it's an event, maybe you propose a happy hour, an event you love. You love board games, board game, happy hour. Now you're out of your shell and you feel more comfortable.
And it's an environment that you feel like you can really add value. Be strategic with how you use your time. Don't feel like you have to fit into the Like shab loves to drink a beer and golf with the dudes. And now I, I have to go do that because I look up to her and she's fabulous. Right. Find something that's going to work for your approach and then kind of tailor your time to that.
Shab: Yeah. I, I no notes. I mean, that was the answer you have to know yourself and you can't pretend to be somebody you're [00:59:00] not when you're doing this, because again, it comes back down to that authenticity. And if you're not going to be able to connect on a real level with someone, if you're just like pretending to be the golfer gal that doesn't know how to golf, they're going to be like, why are you here?
Why are you here? This was expensive tea time. So I would be
Kendall: like, I can do it.
Shab: I know. I know. I know. I'm like, Oh wait, I, I can learn how to play golf, not hard or anything. Um, but I, I agree. I think again, um, You make the deposits in a way that feels good. That's the most important thing here. But make the time for it, like Kendall said.
It's super important. Relationship building is the most important thing. How we communicate with one another. These are all very core parts of our jobs, even though they might not be core competencies. That's the way to play the game.
Theresa: Absolutely. And I wish we could keep going here forever because this has been absolutely incredible.
Um, [01:00:00] but we're going to answer all the questions that came still coming through in the Slack community. So feel free to continue asking your questions. And before we get off this call or the session, I want our listeners to know how they can connect with you and learn more from you and follow you. Let's start with you, Kendall.
Where can people find you?
Kendall: So I am that career coach pretty much everywhere. So Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, the podcast secrets of the career game, uh, pretty much anywhere that has that career coach and especially. net. That's the website that's got all the information. So you can check me out there. Um, I'm also very active on LinkedIn.
Where I post a lot of the same content that I have on my other social media, as well as written encouragements and posts for you guys. So love to connect with anybody who appreciated today's session.
Theresa: Amazing. And, uh, where can people find you and connect with you? I'm
Shab: pretty much just on LinkedIn, although that's probably going to change in 2025.
So stay tuned, but, [01:01:00] uh, yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm very active on there. I spend a lot of time there. Uh, and I would love to get to know. Each and every one of you, connect with you, don't be a stranger. Thank you both
Theresa: for being here. This was amazing. All our listeners, make sure that you follow Kendall and Shab on LinkedIn or any of the other platforms.
They share incredible content day in and day out. And they are just, their expertise, your expertise is just unmatched. It's been a really great session. I appreciate you both so much for being part of the 12 Days of Career Goals.
Kendall: Thanks, Teresa.
Theresa: And that's a wrap on today's session. Huge thank you again to our incredible speakers, Kendall Berg and Chapman Golomohammadi for sharing their wisdom on how to take control of your career in the corporate world. From navigating the unspoken rules of the workplace to positioning yourself for the senior leadership roles, today's conversation was [01:02:00] packed.
It's powerful strategies to help you step into your full potential. As Kendall and Shab highlighted, understanding your unique influence and navigating corporate dynamics authentically are key to breaking through barriers and achieving your career goals. Before you leave today's call, make sure to follow the next three steps.
One, reflect. Take a moment to write down the insights and strategies that resonated most with you today. Write them down in your 12 Days of Career Goals guidebook and think about how they apply to your journey. Number two, identify one clear, actionable step that you will take to put today's lesson into practice.
Whether it's updating your strategy, seeking a mentor, or free framing your mindset. Be specific and write it down in your guidebook. Last but not least, join the conversation in our Slack channel. The link is in your email. Let's continue supporting each other on this career journey. Thank you for joining us today.
And don't forget to tune in [01:03:00] tomorrow for another impactful session on building unshakable confidence and overcoming imposter syndrome. See you tomorrow.
Speaker 2: And that's a wrap for today's episode of Career Clarity Unlocked. If you're feeling stuck in that what's next spiral and are ready to finally break free, Let's chat. You can book your free Career Clarity Call, where we'll uncover what's really important to you, tackle any obstacles holding you back, and map out your best next step.
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And don't forget to share this episode with a friend or on social media. Your support truly means the world. [01:04:00] Thanks for hanging out with me and I'll see you next time.